The Politics Thread 2019

[Gritstone Ram]

43 minutes ago, jono said:

But in reality, communism, as history has shown, creates its own class structure. It’s ends up being the same thing with slightly different trim and packaging. That private ownership could always be stripped for the benefit of the state with a stroke of a pen. 

oh yes .. the intent to do the right thing is there, no one with a brain could deny the theory. But then good old human nature steps in. 
 

funnily enough I might have read a similar or the same article a few years back. The differences are there and nuanced but the end result and the means to get to that end result remain the same. 
 

I know from our past exchanges that you are as sincere as I am, but I am not sure we are going to agree politically, still, the mental exercise is excellent for developing decent arguments ! 

There’s always people who want to manipulate the system no matter how things are run. I’m sure I read a story about some pigs who made a horse work until he died and kept changing their charter to suit.

[uttoxram75]

Current millionaires will still be millionaires under a Labour government, the only difference they'll actually see is less homeless people to step over on their way home..

Oh and a few million more folk with a few extra quid to spend, which I'm sure the wealthiest will get a share of when it trickles up.

[Highgate]

2 hours ago, jono said:

If you find it I’d like a read. I am not sure I agree with the substance of the difference in terms of industrial ownership because in either system both end up being vassals of the state. In Fascism there is a remove but on paper only by grace of the state. Again with private property there are differences but the state is always king. 
 

I don’t think Labour is communist in a pure sense, but the current Labour Party is at a minimum, communist inspired. .. all IMO of course 

What is pure communism though?   And which version of communism do you think the Labour party are inspired by? 

[Ambitious]

2 hours ago, rynny said:

What a brutal attack ?

 

This is the sort of bolleaux that has really put me off about this election campaign. Both the Tories and Labour lie, manipulate situations to highlight deficiencies in each other's campaigns or leadership. I understand it's part of politics. It just bores the living **** out of me. 

Johnson handles an interview poorly regarding a 4 year old sleeping on the floor of a hospital. Low and behold, the same day, someone linked to him is attacked by 'leftie hooligans' that, unfortunately for the conservatives, is shown up as nothing more than a political set up to discredit the opposition. How can anyone say that these the actions of trustworthy leadership? Sly and underhand as they come.  

[maxjam]

2 hours ago, GboroRam said:

Just imagine if it wasn't a nasty tricks smear campaign again. 

https://mobile.twitter.com/bbclaurak/status/1204110491242643457

"Happy to apologiSe for earlier confusion about the punch that wasn’t a punch outside Leeds General - 2 sources suggested it had happened but clear from video that was wrong" 

TBH I didn't know anything about the Leeds Hospital thing until I just googled it.  I saw that video of John McDonnell a while back, quickly tried to find and post it in relation to the second tweet I posted about the Boris Johnson event being cancelled by police due to Labour activists ?

Regardless of the Leeds thing however, John McDonnell has a history of inflammatory speech and imo would be a very dangerous person to have anywhere near a position of power. 

I don't like the Tories but I detest this current Labour mob.

[Comrade 86]

2 hours ago, maxjam said:

TBH I didn't know anything about the Leeds Hospital thing until I just googled it.

Bit embarrassing when you were the one who posted a tweet referencing it. Still, let's not let the truth get in the way of smearing Labour and its supporters you 'detest' so much, eh! 

[Ghost of Clough]

6 hours ago, Ambitious said:

This is the sort of bolleaux that has really put me off about this election campaign. Both the Tories and Labour lie, manipulate situations to highlight deficiencies in each other's campaigns or leadership. I understand it's part of politics. It just bores the living **** out of me. 

Johnson handles an interview poorly regarding a 4 year old sleeping on the floor of a hospital. Low and behold, the same day, someone linked to him is attacked by 'leftie hooligans' that, unfortunately for the conservatives, is shown up as nothing more than a political set up to discredit the opposition. How can anyone say that these the actions of trustworthy leadership? Sly and underhand as they come.  

Except it was a BBC employee making things up, not anyone connected with the Conservative party

[Mostyn6]

A couple of days to the election and I generally have never felt so detached from those wanting power.

It comes down to basically which liar you believe the most.

Tories have had 9 years in power and have proven to complicitly cruel manslaughterers selling off everything to line the pockets of their mates, whilst suggesting Labour sold off everything years before!

Labour just seem to be a mess, they have no true identity due to the Tory-lite Blairites undermining Corbyn's political stance.

The way I am going to look at is this:- Whoever you vote for is full of Bamford, but which is most likely to make things worse on a human level? It's time to remember about humanity, about the children of the future. People focusing on short-term gain, aren't realising that the kids now will be the ones running things when you're an old man. Starve them of a decent upbringing and you reap what you sow.

[Curtains]

 

[ramesses]

9 hours ago, Van Gritters said:

There’s always people who want to manipulate the system no matter how things are run. I’m sure I read a story about some pigs who made a horse work until he died and kept changing their charter to suit.

Man reads animal farm and then votes for the farmers party.

Author turns in grave...

[GboroRam]

1 hour ago, Ghost of Clough said:

Except it was a BBC employee making things up, not anyone connected with the Conservative party

Quoting unnamed senior Conservatives, who she still hasn't named. She never checked if it was true, just posted tory spin. Fake news, I believe they call it nowadays. 

[jono]

8 hours ago, Highgate said:

What is pure communism though?   And which version of communism do you think the Labour party are inspired by? 

This could become a long conversation. ! But in this sound bite world I suppose I could start with the shadow chancellor and probably next leader saying “of course I am a Marxist.” 
 

Pure Communism from my perspective is a flawed Utopian ideal where it suggests we get to ..From each according to his ability, to each according to his need. 

( where that goes wrong is that it ignores some particularly large parts of our human nature as history has shown  )

[maxjam]

5 hours ago, 86 Schmokes & a Pancake said:

Bit embarrassing when you were the one who posted a tweet referencing it. Still, let's not let the truth get in the way of smearing Labour and its supporters you 'detest' so much, eh! 

A bit embarrassing yes but in my defence I did not reference the Leeds thing in either my original post or my follow up post replying to someone - just the content of John McDonnells speeches.

[Curtains]

Labour using NHS as a political football for cheap votes. 
 

What’s new. 

[JuanFloEvraTheCocu'sNesta]

2 minutes ago, Curtains said:

Labour using NHS as a political football for cheap votes. 
 

What’s new. 

If the Conservatives wanted to fund the NHS properly they would have tried to do it at some point in the last 9 years. Labour are right to call them out on it, it's their job as the opposition.

[Ghost of Clough]

51 minutes ago, Mostyn6 said:

The way I am going to look at is this:- Whoever you vote for is full of Bamford, but which is most likely to make things worse on a human level? It's time to remember about humanity, about the children of the future. People focusing on short-term gain, aren't realising that the kids now will be the ones running things when you're an old man. Starve them of a decent upbringing and you reap what you sow.

There's an argument to be had which party would be better in the long-term. Take Labour's 'Tax the Rich' policy as an example. In the short-term, tax receipts will increase, meaning we have more to spend on the NHS, education, etc... However, increased tax rates could drive the rich and/or large companies out of the country, resulting in the net change of tax receipts to decrease and a reduction in education/NHS spending, thus making the children of the future worse off.

[Curtains]

10 minutes ago, JuanFloEvraTheCocu'sNesta said:

If the Conservatives wanted to fund the NHS properly they would have tried to do it at some point in the last 9 years. Labour are right to call them out on it, it's their job as the opposition.

There will never be enough money in the NHS. 

Its still working well despite Labour ******** and it is being funded properly 

PS I wouldn’t wipe my arse on the Daily Mirror 

[Stive Pesley]

3 minutes ago, Curtains said:

There will never be enough money in the NHS. 

Its still working well despite Labour ******** and it is being funded properly 

OK boomer

[AndyinLiverpool]

55 minutes ago, Curtains said:

 

It is somewhat apt that he is aping the really creepy stalker thing from that film.

[Ghost of Clough]

26 minutes ago, JuanFloEvraTheCocu'sNesta said:

If the Conservatives wanted to fund the NHS properly they would have tried to do it at some point in the last 9 years. Labour are right to call them out on it, it's their job as the opposition.

With what money? Health care under the Tories has increase every year, from £117b in 2010 to £153b this year - an increase of more than 30%! (maintaining it at roughly 7.5% of GDP)
The Tories inherited a budget deficit of over £100m in 2010, and have managed to create a budget surplus for the first time in almost 20 years (2 years in a row now) yet still continued to increase health care year on year.