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The Politics Thread 2019

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G STAR RAM

G STAR RAM

Posted
Posted
46 minutes ago, maxjam said:

Not sure he's my hero tbh ?

Not watched the video so don't know the context but regardless Jordan Peterson is not the Shadow Chancellor, potentially Chancellor//Labour Leader by the weekend - advocating the silencing of your political adversaries sets a dangerous precedent. 

Dont worry, that is just another tactic they use to support weak arguments.

Apparently I am the biggest fan of Boris Johnson, Nigel Farage, Donald Trump and Tommy Robinson!

As if I would have enough room for posters of all of them in my bedroom!

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maxjam

maxjam

Posted
Posted
1 minute ago, Van Gritters said:

Labour say they would nationalise utilities but I think it would be a complete waste of money. If it isn’t broken don’t fix it.

https://www.water.org.uk/news-item/great-britain-second-highest-rated-in-the-world-for-water-and-sewerage-services/

Not to mention cost a small fortune or leave us at risk of being sued and expose us to additional risk.  Lets not forget that our previously privatised industries were left in such a great state last time...

https://news.sky.com/story/what-will-labours-nationalisation-plan-cost-11882572

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GboroRam

GboroRam

Posted
Posted
1 hour ago, Norman said:

Wasn't my point though, was it? 

I don't know what your point is any more. 

It started out that Labour are thugs (actually, go look at the behaviour of some of the brexit supporters - I bet they are just "passionate patriots" though, not murderous thugs) and some radical minded people here support violent action. I said it's just me (I don't think I had much, if any, support at the time). You then tried to blur the line where I support violent action and I responded that I support violence to remove violent self labelling nazis from our streets. 

So your original call was that Labour (and probably antifa, not that they are relevant here) is full of violent activists. But it seems there is one Labour supporter on a Derby County forum who thinks beating up fascists, real fascists, isn't objectionable. Kind of not what you were trying to argue. 

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Norman

Norman

Posted
Posted
24 minutes ago, GboroRam said:

I don't know what your point is any more. 

It started out that Labour are thugs (actually, go look at the behaviour of some of the brexit supporters - I bet they are just "passionate patriots" though, not murderous thugs) and some radical minded people here support violent action. I said it's just me (I don't think I had much, if any, support at the time). You then tried to blur the line where I support violent action and I responded that I support violence to remove violent self labelling nazis from our streets. 

So your original call was that Labour (and probably antifa, not that they are relevant here) is full of violent activists. But it seems there is one Labour supporter on a Derby County forum who thinks beating up fascists, real fascists, isn't objectionable. Kind of not what you were trying to argue. 

So you didn't get the point. Then waffle whilst blurring multiple points and conversations into one massive interpretation. Nevermind. 

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Comrade 86

Comrade 86

Posted
Posted
23 minutes ago, GboroRam said:

I don't know what your point is any more. 

It started out that Labour are thugs (actually, go look at the behaviour of some of the brexit supporters - I bet they are just "passionate patriots" though, not murderous thugs) and some radical minded people here support violent action. I said it's just me (I don't think I had much, if any, support at the time). You then tried to blur the line where I support violent action and I responded that I support violence to remove violent self labelling nazis from our streets. 

So your original call was that Labour (and probably antifa, not that they are relevant here) is full of violent activists. But it seems there is one Labour supporter on a Derby County forum who thinks beating up fascists, real fascists, isn't objectionable. Kind of not what you were trying to argue. 

Bugger. What a massive anti-climax. 

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GboroRam

GboroRam

Posted
Posted
2 hours ago, jono said:

Good description, but didn’t Mussolini admit that his ideology came primarily from Marx ? 

I read a great article by some learned professor differentiating between Marxism and fascism, and would happily try and find it again if you are interested. But to try to from memory cover the basics, there was rising support for revolutionary Marxism across Europe at the time, and it was a piece of political subterfuge by the fascists to ride on the coat-tails of the communist popular wave. In Germany they argued they were already fully socialised, as a way to counter the groundswell of bolshevik support. It was nothing more than a ruse. 

There are, I believe, 4 main differences. Firstly public ownership, state ownership is key in communist policy. In fascist thinking the state continues with private ownership and builds up the strength of those companies by allowing a handful of them to monopolise the business. Secondly, communism is an international movement and fascism is very much nationalistic and expansionist. I can't remember the last 2 off the top of my head but will have a think about it if it is of interest. 

Maybe a bit dry a topic for here, but truly fascinating, if a bit off topic, as Labour may be lots of things, but communist they definitely ain't. 

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GboroRam

GboroRam

Posted
Posted
4 hours ago, maxjam said:

Just imagine that if this was Boris...

 

Real world consequences...

 

 

Just imagine if it wasn't a nasty tricks smear campaign again. 

https://mobile.twitter.com/bbclaurak/status/1204110491242643457

"Happy to apologiSe for earlier confusion about the punch that wasn’t a punch outside Leeds General - 2 sources suggested it had happened but clear from video that was wrong" 

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jono

jono

Posted
Posted
20 minutes ago, GboroRam said:

I read a great article by some learned professor differentiating between Marxism and fascism, and would happily try and find it again if you are interested. But to try to from memory cover the basics, there was rising support for revolutionary Marxism across Europe at the time, and it was a piece of political subterfuge by the fascists to ride on the coat-tails of the communist popular wave. In Germany they argued they were already fully socialised, as a way to counter the groundswell of bolshevik support. It was nothing more than a ruse. 

There are, I believe, 4 main differences. Firstly public ownership, state ownership is key in communist policy. In fascist thinking the state continues with private ownership and builds up the strength of those companies by allowing a handful of them to monopolise the business. Secondly, communism is an international movement and fascism is very much nationalistic and expansionist. I can't remember the last 2 off the top of my head but will have a think about it if it is of interest. 

Maybe a bit dry a topic for here, but truly fascinating, if a bit off topic, as Labour may be lots of things, but communist they definitely ain't. 

If you find it I’d like a read. I am not sure I agree with the substance of the difference in terms of industrial ownership because in either system both end up being vassals of the state. In Fascism there is a remove but on paper only by grace of the state. Again with private property there are differences but the state is always king. 
 

I don’t think Labour is communist in a pure sense, but the current Labour Party is at a minimum, communist inspired. .. all IMO of course 

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GboroRam

GboroRam

Posted
Posted
1 minute ago, jono said:

If you find it I’d like a read. I am not sure I agree with the substance of the difference in terms of industrial ownership because in either system both end up being vassals of the state. In Fascism there is a remove but on paper only by grace of the state. Again with private property there are differences but the state is always king. 
 

I don’t think Labour is communist in a pure sense, but the current Labour Party is at a minimum, communist inspired. .. all IMO of course 

It's still clear in fascism that there is private ownership, in communism it's state ownership. 

Third one is about communist removal of class structure vs fascist adherence to a top down, state driven hierarchy. 

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jono

jono

Posted
Posted
22 minutes ago, GboroRam said:

It's still clear in fascism that there is private ownership, in communism it's state ownership. 

Third one is about communist removal of class structure vs fascist adherence to a top down, state driven hierarchy. 

But in reality, communism, as history has shown, creates its own class structure. It’s ends up being the same thing with slightly different trim and packaging. That private ownership could always be stripped for the benefit of the state with a stroke of a pen. 

oh yes .. the intent to do the right thing is there, no one with a brain could deny the theory. But then good old human nature steps in. 
 

funnily enough I might have read a similar or the same article a few years back. The differences are there and nuanced but the end result and the means to get to that end result remain the same. 
 

I know from our past exchanges that you are as sincere as I am, but I am not sure we are going to agree politically, still, the mental exercise is excellent for developing decent arguments ! 

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