Anyone else had enough?

[angieram]

3 hours ago, jameso said:

Haha, I nearly spat my tea out there - I've seen all but one of the games on RamsPlayer and found the match I saw in person (Bolton away) actually less frustrating than all the others... I think it's the combination of seeing dire football for a lot of the matches, then having to listen to doom-and-gloom Shaun Barker over the top of it! ("They've been the better team so far Owen" after the first two minutes of play, etc.)

I might also add that at the games, you can often see more of the off the ball work that goes on, which influences how you see the game.

For example, the frustration voiced about players turning back with the ball might be due to lack of movement further forward.

On Tuesday, some people scored Louie Sibley quite low despite him scoring two goals. One poster said he'd had a "quiet" game. The opposite was true for me, watching live at the game. He was buzzing about, making runs and making himself available but not always receiving the ball. That might not have been apparent on camera.

Similar with players who drop back into defence to cover the forward runs of other players - Bird and Smith in particular are both very good at this but the camera is following the attack.

I agree about Barker. When I get back from games I often hear grumbles reflected across the Forum that I hadn't even considered. It usually turns out they're very similar to those stated by the RamsTV or Radio Derby commentary teams! 

[duncanjwitham]

10 minutes ago, Foreveram said:

Now I’m confused again, so our forwards are rubbish because they need too many chances to score goals, but if they score three goals from not many chances they are lucky, that right 🤷🏻‍♂️

I've never said our forwards are rubbish.  I've been pretty consistent in saying that I think we have a good squad for this level, but we don't seem to have any interest in playing to their strengths, and that's the biggest issue we have at the moment.  

If you get enough balls in and around Collins (crosses, loose balls in the box, whatever), he will score goals at a reasonable rate - he's not a fabulous finisher, but he's decent enough with the right type of service.  Waghorn will score a decent number of poacher-type chances (where he doesn't really have to think about it), and curl one in from the edge of the box every so often etc.  But we don't seem to set out to make those situations happen.  There's no game-plan to engineer a dozen crosses onto Collins head each game, or to get Waghorn cutting in on his strong foot or whatever.  We just seem to stick players into a formation, run around a lot and hope something happens.  So you'll get games where Waghorn sticks all 3 of his chances away (because he's a good player at this level), and sometimes you get games where Collins runs onto 2 through-balls and mucks them up because he's not really that type of striker.  

You can't go into games having to have your striker score every chance he gets, to win the game.  No player is ever going to do that - even the freakishly good finishers (Thierry Henry, Alan Shearer etc) only scored something like 25% of their shots.  With decent players, you will win some games like that, but it won't be enough over the course of a season.  You have to be setting up to create the service that your forwards need to thrive and we just don't.

[Ghost of Clough]

58 minutes ago, Archied said:

Here’s the rub, you and I are a different type of fan , for me when I walk away from a win I don’t want to spend the time till the next game going over possession stats , pass completions, xg number to tell me we didn’t deserve to win the game and probably won’t win many more going forward , I want to spend that time looking forward to the next game in the glow of a win and hope restored , for fans of clubs like ours it’s the hope that sustains you and the hope that kills you , rollercoaster of emotions, ups and downs 🤷🏻‍♂️,

not saying my way is better , it just is what it is 

Go on, show me evidence that I talked about possession, passes, and xG after the Blackpool and Notts County games which we won. I was actually pleased with the play in general for both games.

In fact, these are the criticisms I made in those games, from teams being announced to present...

Blackpool
Barkhuizen should have started (after seeing the team sheet) - came off the bench to assist 2 as we won 3-1.
Stated we rode our luck at times (after FT, but also stated I was really pleased with the win) - which is true, Blackpool had a number of good opportunities to draw level.
Criticising other forum members for not targeting a top 2 spot - can you argue against my view on this?

Notts County
Collins - whilst praising his play outside of the box with some good link up play, I was critical of him getting his feet mixed up, but also felt he was unlucky not to score a goal, but also critical of him being a red card waiting to happen.
Fornah for diving in and giving the penalty away - hardly unjustified criticism
Warne for not giving minutes to youngster at 2-0 with 20 minutes remaining - this has been debated enough already by all parties.

However, I was heavily critical of the Cheltenham draw, mostly due to the style of play being awful, which I highlighted by showing how bad we were at passing (pass %). Perhaps if we had passed it better rather than relying on crosses we would have actually won the game... I was also critical of not bringing Sibley on. His performance against Notts County backs up why he should have been brought on when we were struggling to score.

[Foreveram]

6 minutes ago, duncanjwitham said:

I've never said our forwards are rubbish.  I've been pretty consistent in saying that I think we have a good squad for this level, but we don't seem to have any interest in playing to their strengths, and that's the biggest issue we have at the moment.  

If you get enough balls in and around Collins (crosses, loose balls in the box, whatever), he will score goals at a reasonable rate - he's not a fabulous finisher, but he's decent enough with the right type of service.  Waghorn will score a decent number of poacher-type chances (where he doesn't really have to think about it), and curl one in from the edge of the box every so often etc.  But we don't seem to set out to make those situations happen.  There's no game-plan to engineer a dozen crosses onto Collins head each game, or to get Waghorn cutting in on his strong foot or whatever.  We just seem to stick players into a formation, run around a lot and hope something happens.  So you'll get games where Waghorn sticks all 3 of his chances away (because he's a good player at this level), and sometimes you get games where Collins runs onto 2 through-balls and mucks them up because he's not really that type of striker.  

You can't go into games having to have your striker score every chance he gets, to win the game.  No player is ever going to do that - even the freakishly good finishers (Thierry Henry, Alan Shearer etc) only scored something like 25% of their shots.  With decent players, you will win some games like that, but it won't be enough over the course of a season.  You have to be setting up to create the service that your forwards need to thrive and we just don't.

Sorry, my comment wasn’t aimed specifically at you, more at the wider forum comments and that we were lucky to win at Peterborough.

[SSD]

4 hours ago, CongletonRam said:

What are these 'resources' that you speak about?

Our points per game just about has us in in the top 6 or so, but I don't understand why he should be doing 'much' better.

Every manager in the land can point at games they should have won, or should have lost, goals they should have scored and ones they shouldn't have conceded.

We are currently sitting 14th in the Division One XG table. Now many fans don't like XG, but it does throw up some interesting stats. There are 13 teams in Division One that create more chances to score, while there are 6 teams better than us at preventing their opponents having goal scoring chances.

We are actually punching above our weight according to the stats.

I admit our playing style is dreadful on the eye, and maybe this is what you're referring to, I'm not sure, but stats suggest that I have said all along, the players are very average, even for this league and I have sympathy for our manager in that respect as he is dealing with such a difficult market.

 

 

When I mean resources, firstly this is looking at the training facilities which in my view are the best in the league, certainly one of the best at Championship level. The behind the scenes staff we don't give enough credit for like sports science, data analysts who keep tracking player performance and break down the games, all the physiotherapists. How many clubs in this division how this abundance of staff to help prepare for a match day? 

I'd include our financial budgets which eclipse nearly all the teams in league one. Reading and Wigan, who went down, would have certainly had to slash their staff budgets, wage budget and essentially have no transfer budget. Warne has spent the budget on more experienced players and paid more on wages than transfer fees on younger talent. Personally, I've seen it when we've tried to signing mainly experienced players and nearly every time we try this policy, we fall short of the finish line and everyone is up in arms saying let's overhaul the entire squad.

We've really got a fantastic opportunity to get out of this division and yet I don't feel the manager is maximising the club's potential to really make a stamp on this league. Of course, having financial muscle shouldn't give us the right to walk over the other teams. I do expect us to be challenging the top 2, given all of the above I've highlighted with the size of our resources. And currently I don't feel the team is anywhere near that level. Hopefully we will adapt more at home, take more control and starting picking up a lot more points to fire us up the league.

Edited October 12, 2023 by SSD

[angieram]

4 minutes ago, SSD said:

When I mean resources, firstly this is looking at the training facilities which in my view are the best in the league, certainly one of the best at Championship level. The behind the scenes staff we don't give enough credit for like sports science, data analysts who keep tracking player performance and break down the games, all the physiotherapists. How many clubs in this division how this abundance of staff to help prepare for a match day? 

I'd include our financial budgets which eclipse nearly all the teams in league one. Reading and Wigan, who went down, would have certainly had to slash their staff budgets, wage budget and essentially have no transfer budget. Warne has spent the budget on more experienced players and paid more on wages than transfer fees on younger talent. Personally, I've seen it when we've tried to signing mainly experienced players and nearly every time we try this policy, we fall short of the finish line and everyone is up in arms saying let's overhaul the entire squad.

We've really got a fantastic opportunity to get out of this division and yet I don't feel the manager is maximising the club's potential to really make a stamp on this league. Of course, having financial muscle shouldn't give us the right to walk over the other teams. I do expect us to be challenging the top 2, given all of the above I've highlighted with the size of our resources. And currently I don't feel the team is anywhere near that level. Hopefully we will adapt more at home, take more control and starting picking up a lot more points to fire us up the league.

I'd quite like to get rid of a few of those data analysts, to be honest! 

I'm pretty sure Franny Lee would have never kicked a ball if they'd been around in those days! 😂

[Archied]

2 hours ago, duncanjwitham said:

That's fine, and obviously you're free to enjoy football in whatever way you choose to.

I am just concerned that Warne is of a similar mind of you, and I think that's a much more serious problem if you're a manager.  We seem to go into games with that "never know what your going to get from a game of football" attitude, but hoping that if we run around enough and get enough crosses in, we'll be alright.  Sometimes we are, sometimes we aren't, and that's where the analysis ends.

Good twist 😂, three promotions from this division tells me there’s a bit more to the bloke than that ,

I kind of find it a bit sad to see some of our fans be quite so disrespectful to warne and so dismissive of what in all fairness is an extremely good track record for a young manager at this level but hey each to they’re own🤷🏻‍♂️

[Archied]

2 hours ago, Jimbo Ram said:

And playing good, attractive and exciting football of course 😉

55 years a derby fan tells me not always , I was happy as a mofo at Wembley v West Brom🤷🏻‍♂️

[richinspain]

1 hour ago, angieram said:

I'd quite like to get rid of a few of those data analysts, to be honest! 

I'm pretty sure Franny Lee would have never kicked a ball if they'd been around in those days! 😂

He'd have still won lots of penalties though 😉

[duncanjwitham]

4 minutes ago, Archied said:

Good twist 😂, three promotions from this division tells me there’s a bit more to the bloke than that ,

I kind of find it a bit sad to see some of our fans be quite so disrespectful to warne and so dismissive of what in all fairness is an extremely good track record for a young manager at this level but hey each to they’re own🤷🏻‍♂️

I've seen enough managers do well at other clubs and struggle at Derby, and vice versa, to know that success doesn't always follow you from club to club.  Everything I can see on the pitch, and from what Warne says, is screaming to me that he has his "one magic trick to win football games", and it worked all the time at Rotherham (in League one anyway), and it's not really working here (often enough anyway), and he doesn't really understand why, but he's going to keep doing it anyway because that's all he knows.

[Archied]

2 hours ago, Ghost of Clough said:

Go on, show me evidence that I talked about possession, passes, and xG after the Blackpool and Notts County games which we won. I was actually pleased with the play in general for both games.

In fact, these are the criticisms I made in those games, from teams being announced to present...

Blackpool
Barkhuizen should have started (after seeing the team sheet) - came off the bench to assist 2 as we won 3-1.
Stated we rode our luck at times (after FT, but also stated I was really pleased with the win) - which is true, Blackpool had a number of good opportunities to draw level.
Criticising other forum members for not targeting a top 2 spot - can you argue against my view on this?

Notts County
Collins - whilst praising his play outside of the box with some good link up play, I was critical of him getting his feet mixed up, but also felt he was unlucky not to score a goal, but also critical of him being a red card waiting to happen.
Fornah for diving in and giving the penalty away - hardly unjustified criticism
Warne for not giving minutes to youngster at 2-0 with 20 minutes remaining - this has been debated enough already by all parties.

However, I was heavily critical of the Cheltenham draw, mostly due to the style of play being awful, which I highlighted by showing how bad we were at passing (pass %). Perhaps if we had passed it better rather than relying on crosses we would have actually won the game... I was also critical of not bringing Sibley on. His performance against Notts County backs up why he should have been brought on when we were struggling to score.

Rather tetchy for a reply to a post in which I was merely explaining how I looked at games and at pains in other post to be clear I didn’t think my way was any better , just different and each to they’re own,

your surely not saying that you don’t use stats xg ect to back your view up and others don’t take this stuff as proof warne is a clueless clown ? My opinion is this spreadsheet stuf whilst having some value is far far from being reflective of the nuances in games but again just my view , sometimes I’ve seen stats that reflect the game I’ve watch , others they are painting a totally different picture🤷🏻‍♂️

[Archied]

10 minutes ago, duncanjwitham said:

I've seen enough managers do well at other clubs and struggle at Derby, and vice versa, to know that success doesn't always follow you from club to club.  Everything I can see on the pitch, and from what Warne says, is screaming to me that he has his "one magic trick to win football games", and it worked all the time at Rotherham (in League one anyway), and it's not really working here (often enough anyway), and he doesn't really understand why, but he's going to keep doing it anyway because that's all he knows.

I’ve already said countless times before on here that in my view the question is whether warne can adapt to derby , a bigger club , different pressures , different expectation , so that far we seem to agree , after that you just go into the clueless clown who just dropped lucky with THREE promotions that he doesn’t even understand how he got them , sorry mate that’s just so daft and bias based it’s not worth even debating 

[duncanjwitham]

1 minute ago, Archied said:

I’ve already said countless times before on here that in my view the question is whether warne can adapt to derby , a bigger club , different pressures , different expectation , so that far we seem to agree , after that you just go into the clueless clown who just dropped lucky with THREE promotions that he doesn’t even understand how he got them , sorry mate that’s just so daft and bias based it’s not worth even debating 

To be clear what I mean, I suspect he got a bit lucky in terms of inheriting a squad at Rotherham that was mostly set up to do what he wanted.  And all he had to do was get them doing it, and maintain the squad over the years.  And that worked, so he kept doing it.  I don't think he ever came close to the situation he walked into here, which was a squad built in completely the opposite style to what he wants.  A squad where no amount of telling them to work harder, run more and get it wide quickly is going to yield consistent results, because we don't have the legs in midfield, or the wide-players to cross consistently, or the physical presence up front or whatever.  Yet we keep trying to play that way anyway, so what's the alternative explanation?

Maybe, given enough time, he gets the squad he wants.  But I suspect he won't get it, because inconsistent results (particularly at home), poor quality football, all while at a lower level than the fans are used to, is not a recipe for patience.

[Ghost of Clough]

15 minutes ago, Archied said:

Rather tetchy for a reply to a post in which I was merely explaining how I looked at games and at pains in other post to be clear I didn’t think my way was any better , just different and each to they’re own,

your surely not saying that you don’t use stats xg ect to back your view up and others don’t take this stuff as proof warne is a clueless clown ? My opinion is this spreadsheet stuf whilst having some value is far far from being reflective of the nuances in games but again just my view , sometimes I’ve seen stats that reflect the game I’ve watch , others they are painting a totally different picture🤷🏻‍♂️

You aren't "merely explaining how [you] looked at games". You're also making accusations without proof. When challenged, you move the goalposts.

Just to recap, this is what you stated: 
"Here’s the rub, you and I are a different type of fan , for me when I walk away from a win I don’t want to spend the time till the next game going over possession stats , pass completions, xg number to tell me we didn’t deserve to win the game"
And:
"Your enjoyment of the game is enhanced and influenced by stats , spreadsheets ect ect and that’s ok , for me it’s not , it’s all about results and atmosphere 🤷🏻‍♂️"

The suggestion being made is that I care more about the stats than the performance and results. Whilst I don't attend all games (mostly away), it's quality of play which I enjoy, not the 'atmosphere'. My enjoyment doesn't differ if we have a packed stadium jumping up and down and chanting or if it's silent. The quality of play (not style) is the important factor.

This also follows an earlier claim that I wanted Warne sacked after the Peterborough win, because I felt we didn't deserve to win the match. I'm still to see evidence that I've suggested such action:
"I’ve never come away from a game thinking the manager needs sacking because we didn’t deserve the win"

[CongletonRam]

7 hours ago, trappatoni said:

 

Can you expand on why you think those stats suggest the players are average  ?

 

Our squad is made up of predominantly lower league journeymen.

Only 30% of our entire first team squad have played more games at a level higher than League One.

Of those 30%, most are on the wane, and past their best.

So many fans are under the illusion that Warne isn't getting the best out of these players. Nobody seems to want to suggest that just maybe, the players are average for this level.

Warne has to come out with his rhetoric to appease the fan base which as we know, is expectant, sometimes unrealistically so.

This league is there to win and such is the absolute lack of quality in the league, DCFC could actually go up automatically. That still doesn't change the fact that we are woefully short of quality ourselves.

Now trappatoni, you clearly don't think the players are average. What is it that makes you think this way? Have the squad had different playing careers in their previous lives?

 

[sage]

23 minutes ago, CongletonRam said:

Our squad is made up of predominantly lower league journeymen.

Only 30% of our entire first team squad have played more games at a level higher than League One.

Of those 30%, most are on the wane, and past their best.

So many fans are under the illusion that Warne isn't getting the best out of these players. Nobody seems to want to suggest that just maybe, the players are average for this level.

Warne has to come out with his rhetoric to appease the fan base which as we know, is expectant, sometimes unrealistically so.

This league is there to win and such is the absolute lack of quality in the league, DCFC could actually go up automatically. That still doesn't change the fact that we are woefully short of quality ourselves.

Now trappatoni, you clearly don't think the players are average. What is it that makes you think this way? Have the squad had different playing careers in their previous lives?

 

[Archied]

2 hours ago, duncanjwitham said:

To be clear what I mean, I suspect he got a bit lucky in terms of inheriting a squad at Rotherham that was mostly set up to do what he wanted.  And all he had to do was get them doing it, and maintain the squad over the years.  And that worked, so he kept doing it.  I don't think he ever came close to the situation he walked into here, which was a squad built in completely the opposite style to what he wants.  A squad where no amount of telling them to work harder, run more and get it wide quickly is going to yield consistent results, because we don't have the legs in midfield, or the wide-players to cross consistently, or the physical presence up front or whatever.  Yet we keep trying to play that way anyway, so what's the alternative explanation?

Maybe, given enough time, he gets the squad he wants.  But I suspect he won't get it, because inconsistent results (particularly at home), poor quality football, all while at a lower level than the fans are used to, is not a recipe for patience.

Have you checked out rather than suspect what the squad and regular first team were when he joined ? What players he brought In ? Did he promote any from the under23 s ect ,

I take it you think of Steve Mac in the same way ?

await the evidence on Rotherham/ warne scenario as it’s a big claim to make in support of your statement that warne got lucky with 3 promotions and doesn’t understand how he did it , if you personally don’t rate him that’s one thing,,,,, but 🤷🏻‍♂️
 

[Archied]

2 hours ago, Ghost of Clough said:

You aren't "merely explaining how [you] looked at games". You're also making accusations without proof. When challenged, you move the goalposts.

Just to recap, this is what you stated: 
"Here’s the rub, you and I are a different type of fan , for me when I walk away from a win I don’t want to spend the time till the next game going over possession stats , pass completions, xg number to tell me we didn’t deserve to win the game"
And:
"Your enjoyment of the game is enhanced and influenced by stats , spreadsheets ect ect and that’s ok , for me it’s not , it’s all about results and atmosphere 🤷🏻‍♂️"

The suggestion being made is that I care more about the stats than the performance and results. Whilst I don't attend all games (mostly away), it's quality of play which I enjoy, not the 'atmosphere'. My enjoyment doesn't differ if we have a packed stadium jumping up and down and chanting or if it's silent. The quality of play (not style) is the important factor.

This also follows an earlier claim that I wanted Warne sacked after the Peterborough win, because I felt we didn't deserve to win the match. I'm still to see evidence that I've suggested such action:
"I’ve never come away from a game thinking the manager needs sacking because we didn’t deserve the win"

So you don’t ever come on and post heavily regards stats , possession, xg ect ect ect to back up your opinion and disprove others opinions of games they have watched ? You’ve already said you go over them to confirm what you’ve seen with your own eyes , do you ever disregard the stats in favour of what you’ve watched ?

by atmosphere I don’t mean just a packed stadium jumping up and down making noise , the atmosphere can be tense , nervy and quite , I’ve been at games I loved when the crowds have not been great so your a bit off track with that assumption,

so your happy with warne and are calling for and voting for him to be given time rather than posting stats you say show why he shouldn’t ? If i am mixing your posts up with another who does this the apologies but I don’t have the time or inclination to trawl back over endless topics all aimed at every reason under the sun why warne should be replaced 🤷🏻‍♂️
the suggestion was not that you care MORE about the stats , rather that they play a big part in your enjoyment of the game as a whole and as I’ve stated already , each to they’re own

Edited October 12, 2023 by Archied

[DavesaRam]

I think quite a lot of the negativity on here isn't because the forum is full of miserable, moaning old gits and gittesses. Rather it is put of frustration. AS many have said on here the frustration is because we know that the squad is capable of so much more, but effectively hasn't been allowed to be that much more capable. And no, we aren't an entitled mob who think this squad is better than it is. The squad isn't a lower half League 1 squad because we have actually seen them doing the business on occasion. 

In soe of the more dire matches to watch, all of a sudden we keep the ball on the floor, pass and move and actually create an opportunity or two, and inevitably it results in a goal or a great chance. Just odd flashes here and there, but WE CAN DO IT. Lincoln was a case in point, as was Tuesday night. It doesn't have to be an incessant diet of "whack it wide and wallop it into the middle". Then there are the frustrations of seeing what is needed, knowing that we can make that happen, but then have to it and watch when we don't make the changes needed - playing almost anybody and his dog in the number 10 role, but keeping or natural number 10 player on the bench, or doing the same with our best finisher when we couldn't hit a barn door with a banjo is frustrating.

What does need putting right is overt negativity, comments verging on abuse, especially personal abuse, and then forum members getting into long disagreements when we should be talking about the match or the club, not doing each other down. I do read almost everything that gets posted on here, but I do vacate a thread when it descends into two posters arguing about the minutia of opinion, and the argument just goes on and on and on, completely unnecessarily. Let it go, lads.

[Comrade 86]

5 hours ago, angieram said:

One poster said he'd had a "quiet" game. The opposite was true for me, watching live at the game. He was buzzing about, making runs and making himself available but not always receiving the ball. That might not have been apparent on camera.

If he'd only had the three shots, it'd not be a "quiet" game. Two goals and one crashed off the bar as well 🤷‍♀️

How many touches does Haaland average, I wonder?