Anyone else had enough?

[Archied]

9 hours ago, tomsdubs said:

The footy is poor though and we are playing very basic football, Warne saying he doesnt want to compete in midfield with Cheltenham Town. I know we got some rebuilding to do but I feel like we are being held back by his style of play. It isn't a nice watch and coming out the ground last night I was pretty uninspired and watching Notts County pass it about most the game. Home performances have been poor so far and he isn't getting consistency we need to push for promotion.

Now there’s a straight opinion that’s not hyperbole and not looking for any and every angle to unfairly criticise the manager, now I can disagree and believe what we are seeing is not fully what warne wants and we will improve as the season goes on in just the same way as I felt pretty much the same under liam ( turgid boring sideways crab football )without attacking his every move or word 🐏👍

Edited October 12, 2023 by Archied

[Archied]

8 hours ago, europia said:

Successful teams have to find a way to play against those teams out to frustrate and contain. It's also about turning those draws into wins. I don't think people are being negative when they are disappointed at not winning a game against a bottom of the league team who hadn't scored a goal all season. That's not an unreasonable expectation. The manager being happy with the performance is however, a bit of a concern.

I’m with you with the disappointment but to be fair what the manager says in public is probably not what he says to the players , if he comes out and throws them under the bus he rightly gets slated , if he comes out and says it all his fault the fans and players quickly throw him under the bus , it’s a fine line and we are on an unbeaten run too🤷🏻‍♂️

[Archied]

8 hours ago, SSD said:

The reason why I enjoy this forum is the variety of opinions and debate about what we all enjoy and what we don't enjoy. 

I don't like the style of football and how the manager thinks about the game. Playing it wide and pumping the ball into the box was great about 20-30 years ago and I would expect that level of football from a small reputation club in our division. Yes, we're unbeaten and our away form is spot, I have to give Warne praise for making us difficult to beat away from home when we couldn't buy an away win for years. Unbeaten runs however are not good enough to get you out of division, the standard of promoted teams is becoming much better. You have to be aiming for 90 points to get out of league. 75-80 won't cut it anymore unfortunately.

With all the resources at his disposal, the manager should be doing much better, particularly at home where we've looked poor without Didzy. Even though he has recruited heavily in the summer, I don't think he's playing to the squads strengths. So many technical footballers yet trying to turn them into running machines. He keeps reference how Man City and Liverpool are brilliant teams because they run. True, but they play with a style which blows people away. We run for the sake of running at times. We can be so much smarter on the ball yet this obsession to hit it wide and blast balls into the penalty area makes is so one dimensional and predictable.

For all my critical analysis, I am never making it personal. Some of the verbal abuse towards PW online is unacceptable and we must not forget there's a human soul underneath that cap. He is a genuine man and he says it how it is. Is he the manager I want at the club, definitely not. But I'll back him and the team at the ground no matter what. This forum is a chance to release some of my frustrations.

Solid reasonable post 🤷🏻‍♂️

[CongletonRam]

10 hours ago, SSD said:

With all the resources at his disposal, the manager should be doing much better

What are these 'resources' that you speak about?

Our points per game just about has us in in the top 6 or so, but I don't understand why he should be doing 'much' better.

Every manager in the land can point at games they should have won, or should have lost, goals they should have scored and ones they shouldn't have conceded.

We are currently sitting 14th in the Division One XG table. Now many fans don't like XG, but it does throw up some interesting stats. There are 13 teams in Division One that create more chances to score, while there are 6 teams better than us at preventing their opponents having goal scoring chances.

We are actually punching above our weight according to the stats.

I admit our playing style is dreadful on the eye, and maybe this is what you're referring to, I'm not sure, but stats suggest that I have said all along, the players are very average, even for this league and I have sympathy for our manager in that respect as he is dealing with such a difficult market.

 

 

Edited October 12, 2023 by CongletonRam

[Walkley Ram]

2 hours ago, Archied said:

I’m with you with the disappointment but to be fair what the manager says in public is probably not what he says to the players , if he comes out and throws them under the bus he rightly gets slated , if he comes out and says it all his fault the fans and players quickly throw him under the bus , it’s a fine line and we are on an unbeaten run too🤷🏻‍♂️

Well, Warne has said we are fundamentally failing.

"Fundamentally, we're failing, we're not in the top six where we need to get," Warne told BBC Radio Derby.

"They need to go away and have a think, come back and improve with the standards, all of them.

"If the lads want to achieve something then we have to improve. Everybody has to be spot if we're going to be successful in all aspects of their game."

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/67081917

[Dcfcsr92]

21 hours ago, MadAmster said:

Our 2nd. Collo couldn't get a shot away as the pass was behind him. Still manged to reach back and get is left foot to it. Ball went up in the air towards the far post where Bird headed it back. Good overhead from Collins but it hit the keeper, bounced out to Sibs who put it away. Collo's initial contact was as good as we could hope for given the poor quality of the pass. Bit of luck that it bounced up nicely for Bird to put back into the mix. Collo hit the target with his bicycle kick. He didn't do much wrong there...

Having said that, I can think of occasions in the last 2 games where he ought to have done better.

I get PW not wanting to play through the middle. I don't agree with it but I think I get it. If we had a Coldplay type of hold up, target man, going through the middle more would be a great idea. Collo isn't that type of player. Hence why PW prefers going down the outside and getting crosses in. With the inverted wingers last night we had other options and it worked. Play that again but with Waggy or Wash central and we can create more opportunities. Possibly even more so when JJ is fit.

Why not give brown a chance? He looked really sharp in pre season and brought players into the game. You never know until you give him a chance 

[Raich Carter]

I'm sure this isn't universally the case but if you don't go to the games (thus far this season, this includes me) then perhaps you are less frustrated because you see the results and highlights - both of which are (almost) acceptable.

Whereas when I went to the games last season, I was as angry as many of you lot because the football just seemed so... brainless. For me, the standout managers who had good, solid, sensible games plans (formations, tactics, plays) were TBE, Schteve and Burley all of whom had reasonable success. WeeBilly also had a very clear game plan and success but I really, really don't like the man so I'll leave him out of that list (I'm sure most of you will agree). It pains me to watch 90+ mins of football which seems largely driven by hope/statistical analysis rather than proper patterns of play.

When PW talks, sometimes it feels like he knows what he wants - my fear is that even if that's where we ultimately get, it's probably not going to be what we want to watch.

Having said that, Our Saviour Lord DC isn't daft. He sees what we see (I suspect) but applying business logic to it, even if he doesn't like PW's methods, if we get the results then he'll persevere. DC doesn't strike me as the 'shoot from the hip' type. He's a sensible, steady guy who's used to long term projects so I'd say PW is here for a good while yet. However, I suspect what will make him change Manager is poor results and reduced attendances - hard data points basically.

[Guest]

2 minutes ago, Raich Carter said:

I'm sure this isn't universally the case but if you don't go to the games (thus far this season, this includes me) then perhaps you are less frustrated because you see the results and highlights - both of which are (almost) acceptable.

Haha, I nearly spat my tea out there - I've seen all but one of the games on RamsPlayer and found the match I saw in person (Bolton away) actually less frustrating than all the others... I think it's the combination of seeing dire football for a lot of the matches, then having to listen to doom-and-gloom Shaun Barker over the top of it! ("They've been the better team so far Owen" after the first two minutes of play, etc.)

[trappatoni]

48 minutes ago, CongletonRam said:

What are these 'resources' that you speak about?

Our points per game just about has us in in the top 6 or so, but I don't understand why he should be doing 'much' better.

Every manager in the land can point at games they should have won, or should have lost, goals they should have scored and ones they shouldn't have conceded.

We are currently sitting 14th in the Division One XG table. Now many fans don't like XG, but it does throw up some interesting stats. There are 13 teams in Division One that create more chances to score, while there are 6 teams better than us at preventing their opponents having goal scoring chances.

We are actually punching above our weight according to the stats.

I admit our playing style is dreadful on the eye, and maybe this is what you're referring to, I'm not sure, but stats suggest that I have said all along, the players are very average, even for this league and I have sympathy for our manager in that respect as he is dealing with such a difficult market.

 

 

 

Can you expand on why you think those stats suggest the players are average  ?   They'd be equally consistent with the argument the manager isn't getting the best out of them. 

For me our squad is excellent for this level with the possible exception of the 9.   Possible because I'd need to see more of 2023 Waghorn or John Jules  in that position - Collins is certainly very average and Washington's goals record is a fairly convincing argument he isnt what we need. 

 

[PistoldPete]

22 hours ago, jimtastic56 said:

Warne said last night “We are failing because we are not in the top 6”. He’s not stupid , he knows we have to improve . I am happy for him to continue after all the owner is also. We have to respect fans who are not happy with him. They believe we are so Massive that top 2 is the minimum requirement. The criticism does not upset me .

We are failing because we are not in the top 2. We were bookies favourites in the summer so Warne is failing if he doesn’t get automatic promotion. I mean I would settle for going up via the playoffs but we really should be doing better. 

[PistoldPete]

29 minutes ago, Raich Carter said:

I'm sure this isn't universally the case but if you don't go to the games (thus far this season, this includes me) then perhaps you are less frustrated because you see the results and highlights - both of which are (almost) acceptable.

Whereas when I went to the games last season, I was as angry as many of you lot because the football just seemed so... brainless. For me, the standout managers who had good, solid, sensible games plans (formations, tactics, plays) were TBE, Schteve and Burley all of whom had reasonable success. WeeBilly also had a very clear game plan and success but I really, really don't like the man so I'll leave him out of that list (I'm sure most of you will agree). It pains me to watch 90+ mins of football which seems largely driven by hope/statistical analysis rather than proper patterns of play.

When PW talks, sometimes it feels like he knows what he wants - my fear is that even if that's where we ultimately get, it's probably not going to be what we want to watch.

Having said that, Our Saviour Lord DC isn't daft. He sees what we see (I suspect) but applying business logic to it, even if he doesn't like PW's methods, if we get the results then he'll persevere. DC doesn't strike me as the 'shoot from the hip' type. He's a sensible, steady guy who's used to long term projects so I'd say PW is here for a good while yet. However, I suspect what will make him change Manager is poor results and reduced attendances - hard data points basically.

Even with Rowettball which I hated watching you could at least see a game plan. Let the opposition come at you then get Tom Huddleston launch a quarterback ball forward for Vydra to run onto on the break. Hey presto, we won a lot of games until Vydra got injured. 
 

our game plan under Warne is get it out wide let someone launch the ball skyward and hope someone gets on the end of it. 

[RoyMac5]

2 minutes ago, PistoldPete said:

Even with Rowettball which I hated watching you could at least see a game plan. Let the opposition come at you then get Tom Huddleston launch a quarterback ball forward for Vydra to run onto on the break. Hey presto, we won a lot of games until Vydra got injured. 

our game plan under Warne is get it out wide let someone launch the ball skyward and hope someone gets on the end of it. 

…And not be bothered when we lose the ball and they run through us in midfield to attack.

[Ghost of Clough]

1 hour ago, CongletonRam said:

What are these 'resources' that you speak about?

Our points per game just about has us in in the top 6 or so, but I don't understand why he should be doing 'much' better.

Every manager in the land can point at games they should have won, or should have lost, goals they should have scored and ones they shouldn't have conceded.

We are currently sitting 14th in the Division One XG table. Now many fans don't like XG, but it does throw up some interesting stats. There are 13 teams in Division One that create more chances to score, while there are 6 teams better than us at preventing their opponents having goal scoring chances.

We are actually punching above our weight according to the stats.

I admit our playing style is dreadful on the eye, and maybe this is what you're referring to, I'm not sure, but stats suggest that I have said all along, the players are very average, even for this league and I have sympathy for our manager in that respect as he is dealing with such a difficult market.

We will have a top 3 wage budget

14th in the xG table would suggest the club is vastly underachieving. Either management not getting the most out of the players or recruitment (including management team) not signing good enough players for the system on the field. It does depend on which xG modelling is used though, and how they determine what xG score results in a 'win' as one source has us 5th. 

Based on rounding xG and xGA to the nearest whole number:
Wigan should have been 2-2 (was 1-2) = +1 point
Burton should have 2-0 (was 3-0)
Oxford should have been 1-1 (was 1-2) = +1 point
Fleetwood should have been 1-1 (was 1-0) = -2 points
Peterborough should have been 2-3 (was 4-2) = -3 points
Bolton should have been 1-1 (was 1-2) = +1 point
Portsmouth should have been 2-2 (was 1-1)
Carlisle should have been 1-0 (was 2-0)
Cambridge should have been 1-0 (was 0-0) = +2 points
Blackpool should have been 2-1 (was 3-1)
Cheltenham should have been 2-1 (was 1-1) = +2 points

Those results would put us on 20 points with a +5 goal difference.

[RoyMac5]

1 minute ago, Ghost of Clough said:

We will have a top 3 wage budget

14th in the xG table would suggest the club is vastly underachieving. Either management not getting the most out of the players or recruitment (including management team) not signing good enough players for the system on the field. It does depend on which xG modelling is used though, and how they determine what xG score results in a 'win' as one source has us 5th. 

Based on rounding xG and xGA to the nearest whole number:
Wigan should have been 2-2 (was 1-2) = +1 point
Burton should have 2-0 (was 3-0)
Oxford should have been 1-1 (was 1-2) = +1 point
Fleetwood should have been 1-1 (was 1-0) = -2 points
Peterborough should have been 2-3 (was 4-2) = -3 points
Bolton should have been 1-1 (was 1-2) = +1 point
Portsmouth should have been 2-2 (was 1-1)
Carlisle should have been 1-0 (was 2-0)
Cambridge should have been 1-0 (was 0-0) = +2 points
Blackpool should have been 2-1 (was 3-1)
Cheltenham should have been 2-1 (was 1-1) = +2 points

Those results would put us on 20 points with a +5 goal difference.

👍🏻 Very modern. How modern do you think our manager is though?

[Tamworthram]

25 minutes ago, PistoldPete said:

We are failing because we are not in the top 2. We were bookies favourites in the summer so Warne is failing if he doesn’t get automatic promotion. I mean I would settle for going up via the playoffs but we really should be doing better. 

Surely it all depends on how you define "failing". You're taking failure to be top 2 whilst Warne (and I would imagine DC) is taking top 6. I'm not sure I'd take bookies preseason expectations as the benchmark. Over a period of time, bookies of course get it right more often than they get it wrong but do we have to take what they say as gospel? 

[Foreveram]

7 minutes ago, RoyMac5 said:

👍🏻 Very modern. How modern do you think our manager is though?

[RoyMac5]

3 minutes ago, Tamworthram said:

Surely it all depends on how you define "failing". You're taking failure to be top 2 whilst Warne (and I would imagine DC) is taking top 6. I'm not sure I'd take bookies preseason expectations as the benchmark. Over a period of time, bookies of course get it right more often than they get it wrong but do we have to take what they say as gospel? 

Top 6 was a expected last season? Warne said he failed. After over a year in the job and a weaker league, got to be wanting a Top 2 finish?

[Foreveram]

14 minutes ago, Ghost of Clough said:

We will have a top 3 wage budget

14th in the xG table would suggest the club is vastly underachieving. Either management not getting the most out of the players or recruitment (including management team) not signing good enough players for the system on the field. It does depend on which xG modelling is used though, and how they determine what xG score results in a 'win' as one source has us 5th. 

Based on rounding xG and xGA to the nearest whole number:
Wigan should have been 2-2 (was 1-2) = +1 point
Burton should have 2-0 (was 3-0)
Oxford should have been 1-1 (was 1-2) = +1 point
Fleetwood should have been 1-1 (was 1-0) = -2 points
Peterborough should have been 2-3 (was 4-2) = -3 points
Bolton should have been 1-1 (was 1-2) = +1 point
Portsmouth should have been 2-2 (was 1-1)
Carlisle should have been 1-0 (was 2-0)
Cambridge should have been 1-0 (was 0-0) = +2 points
Blackpool should have been 2-1 (was 3-1)
Cheltenham should have been 2-1 (was 1-1) = +2 points

Those results would put us on 20 points with a +5 goal difference.

Coming away from the Peterborough match I don’t think I heard one person say we should have lost that.🤔

[MadAmster]

19 hours ago, Stockport Ram said:

The Commons free kick onto Hulse’s head in the last 10 minutes - the Jay McKeveley touchline fracas when Billy claimed Nigel kicked him in the shins (Aimed for the groin but forgot what a short ar$e Billy was) ? It’s days like that which keep you going in seasons like this....

South end of the West for that one with a lad from the village. We got the free kick and I said "Commons onto Hulse's head at the near post".... Later in Jorrocks folk heard us speaking Dutch... they were impressed we'd flown over for the game. Was bought a fair few beers that evening.

[MadAmster]

17 hours ago, DRBee said:

Patronising in the extreme.  

 

as is leaving out the end of the sentence quoted, thereby eliminating any context