Derby v Carlisle (A) Match Thread

[Tyler Durden]

2 minutes ago, RoyMac5 said:

How do you know what people at the Club are questioning?

Because Warne is being allowed to behave in this way either means that the club are comfortable with his attitude towards the academy or that no one at the club is even showing a casual interest in how Warne conducts himself.

[RoyMac5]

8 minutes ago, Tyler Durden said:

Because Warne is being allowed to behave in this way either means that the club are comfortable with his attitude towards the academy or that no one at the club is even showing a casual interest in how Warne conducts himself.

Or they are considering how to deal with things and have been talking with Warne? Or they are considering the next move?

Lol. You aren't very good at making up stories are you.

[Curtains]

9 minutes ago, Tyler Durden said:

Because Warne is being allowed to behave in this way either means that the club are comfortable with his attitude towards the academy or that no one at the club is even showing a casual interest in how Warne conducts himself.

So I assume it’s not true then .

Maybe Warne does have an interest in the academy or he relies on Jake Buxton and Bradley Johnson to inform him if any players are ready for 1st team yet. 
This discussion goes on all the time regarding how good the academy players are.  

[Curtains]

2 minutes ago, RoyMac5 said:

Or they are considering how to deal with things and have been talking with Warne? Or they are considering the next move?

Lol. You aren't very good at making up stories are you.

Deal with things.  What things !

Isn’t this something that’s not even there 

[Tyler Durden]

3 minutes ago, RoyMac5 said:

Or they are considering how to deal with things and have been talking with Warne? Or they are considering the next move?

Lol. You aren't very good at making up stories are you.

Yes but seeing as this behaviour apparently has been going on for the past year the talking to hasn't had much effect has it?

Or maybe it's not an issue for the club.

[RoyMac5]

10 minutes ago, Curtains said:

Deal with things.  What things !

Isn’t this something that’s not even there 

I have no idea, @Tyler Durden started questioning @Ghost of Clough's post. Ask him what he was on about.

[Foreveram]

26 minutes ago, RoyMac5 said:

I have no idea, @Tyler Durden started questioning @Ghost of Clough's post. Ask him what he was on about.

Only three more days and they’ll be a new match to argue about 😂

[winktheram]

42 minutes ago, Curtains said:

So I assume it’s not true then .

Maybe Warne does have an interest in the academy or he relies on Jake Buxton and Bradley Johnson to inform him if any players are ready for 1st team yet. 
This discussion goes on all the time regarding how good the academy players are.  

Agree. The academy was decimated. Last year's U21s won one game all season. They were playing young lads to fulfill fixtures. They've started the rebuild this season, so it's fair to expect a few to start coming through during the season. Warne is right, last season and at present they weren't/aren't good enough. But this should improve. Like the club as a whole, the academy is in reset and rebuild, can't see why people can't see this. 

[Curtains]

6 minutes ago, winktheram said:

Agree. The academy was decimated. Last year's U21s won one game all season. They were playing young lads to fulfill fixtures. They've started the rebuild this season, so it's fair to expect a few to start coming through during the season. Warne is right, last season and at present they weren't/aren't good enough. But this should improve. Like the club as a whole, the academy is in reset and rebuild, can't see why people can't see this. 

Maybe some fans think that they won’t be trained in the right styles of football.  I am not passing an opinion on that lol.  See what I did there. 

[G STAR RAM]

1 hour ago, Curtains said:

So I assume it’s not true then .

Maybe Warne does have an interest in the academy or he relies on Jake Buxton and Bradley Johnson to inform him if any players are ready for 1st team yet. 
This discussion goes on all the time regarding how good the academy players are.  

Spot on.

 

[G STAR RAM]

31 minutes ago, winktheram said:

Agree. The academy was decimated. Last year's U21s won one game all season. They were playing young lads to fulfill fixtures. They've started the rebuild this season, so it's fair to expect a few to start coming through during the season. Warne is right, last season and at present they weren't/aren't good enough. But this should improve. Like the club as a whole, the academy is in reset and rebuild, can't see why people can't see this. 

Because they dont want to see it, because it would not fit with their agenda?

[Ghost of Clough]

27 minutes ago, winktheram said:

Agree. The academy was decimated. Last year's U21s won one game all season. They were playing young lads to fulfill fixtures. They've started the rebuild this season, so it's fair to expect a few to start coming through during the season. Warne is right, last season and at present they weren't/aren't good enough. But this should improve. Like the club as a whole, the academy is in reset and rebuild, can't see why people can't see this. 

Warne's version of 'ready' is different to others'. What Warne says is correct... They aren't ready to be first team regulars. However, he completely gametimethe very important developmental requirement of giving them first team experience. Firstly, experience in our first team informs other clubs the player is ready for first team football lower down in the pyramid, opening doors for loans. Secondly, it's the only opportunity to see if they are actually ready for the first team or not. Thirdly, it motivates them yo push harder for a more regular role in the first team.

Springett wasn't even at upper L1 level when he joined us last season, but he was still given gametime in the PL with Norwich before his loan. You could argue it was those few first team games which led to us wanting him on loan.

Robinson was given minutes in the Championship, yet hasn't set foot on the pitch in L1.

Thompson played a significant amount of football in a Championship side which would have finished 17th in the Championship if not for points deducted. He was limited to just 190 minutes in League 1 last season.

[europia]

12 hours ago, Archied said:

Yet most of the time when sides are underperforming or have injuries it’s pretty much a given that managers revert to grinding out some clean sheets and getting some points in the bank 🤷🏻‍♂️

Yes absolutely, grinding out results when not playing well is important. However, I'm not sure everyone considered the performances to have been convincing prior to the current stack up of injuries. I could be wring though. 

[ilkleyram]

There are a number of contributors to these pages, genuine fans all I’m pretty sure, whose informed and interesting views I have enjoyed reading over the years but whose opinion of our manager is consistently less than positive, couched always in terms of ‘I want him and the team to do well, but….’  The latest ‘but’ appears to be his use (or non-use) of academy players.

Are we really all so cynical nowadays that we don’t believe what we’re being told in interviews or have we just stopped listening?

Warne has explained how much benefit he will get as manager from an academy player breaking through into the first team.  It’s in his interest for that to happen as it stretches his budget and allows him to spend more elsewhere.  Even if you (mistakenly imo) believe that he’s not ‘interested’ in young players, surely you can understand that he might be keen to extend his financial reach and recruit more widely?

He’s explained - and we have the photos to prove it happens - that players from the academy join in first team training sessions so that he and his staff can look at them but also so that the players themselves get a taste of the requirements of being a first team member.  He’s explained that they have to perform, to make the most of their opportunity.  Hasn't football, at all levels, always been the same?  It’s dog eat dog.  You have to perform all the time, now more than ever. Those who work hard, and not necessarily the most talented, get to have careers.  Twas ever thus

Hasn’t he said that he has to be sure that a young player won’t be destroyed by the experience of playing in the first team?  In these somewhat softer times aren’t we all aware of the mental health of individuals in a very tough work place - David Clowes directly referred to it in relation to Rosenior, for example.  Warne has said that he has seen a player’s career destroyed by being thrown in at the deep end too soon; Will Hughes (for example) was introduced gently - played on the wing/played for a few minutes at the end of a game before he was allowed to play regularly.  I was there at Steve Powell’s full debut v Liverpool.  It wasn’t his actual debut if I recall correctly.  But Steve (like Tom Huddleston) was a freak of football nature - a 16 year old in a man’s body, steeped in football from his father and with the mental strength to go with it.  There’s a reason that boys very rarely play men’s professional football. Shouldn’t we be glad that a senior member of our management team has the long term career prospects of our youngest players at heart rather than short term gain?  If you were a parent of someone coming through wouldn’t you want your son (or daughter) to be looked after?  We’re a tough crowd in a tough business and I don’t want a player destroyed by a poor performance in front of a Pride Park crowd. I want a manager to play someone when he thinks that player is ready, not before, and if he errs on the side of caution then good. Better that than destroying a career.

And what experience do our current academy players have to bring?  It’s not a winning experience, that’s for sure.  And lest anyone thinks I’m criticising, I’m not.  The academy was pillaged to help us have a club to support.  16/17/18 year olds couldn’t cope with under 21 football last season and they’re struggling again this season despite additions, so how are they going to cope with League 1 football? But Warne has described the regular meetings he and his staff have with those in charge of the academy (and recruitment) where they discuss who is ready for the opportunity, initially to train with the first team and then to show what they can do.  Shouldn’t we applaud that approach?

By all means criticise Warne for team selection or substitutions or formations or whatever if you want to but let’s not manufacture a lack of interest in young players coming through our academy as (yet) another stick to beat him with

[Van der MoodHoover]

On 26/09/2023 at 10:43, hintonsboots said:

Sorry mi lord.

It's mi duck.......😉

[Ghost of Clough]

38 minutes ago, ilkleyram said:

There are a number of contributors to these pages, genuine fans all I’m pretty sure, whose informed and interesting views I have enjoyed reading over the years but whose opinion of our manager is consistently less than positive, couched always in terms of ‘I want him and the team to do well, but….’  The latest ‘but’ appears to be his use (or non-use) of academy players.

Are we really all so cynical nowadays that we don’t believe what we’re being told in interviews or have we just stopped listening?

Warne has explained how much benefit he will get as manager from an academy player breaking through into the first team.  It’s in his interest for that to happen as it stretches his budget and allows him to spend more elsewhere.  Even if you (mistakenly imo) believe that he’s not ‘interested’ in young players, surely you can understand that he might be keen to extend his financial reach and recruit more widely?

He’s explained - and we have the photos to prove it happens - that players from the academy join in first team training sessions so that he and his staff can look at them but also so that the players themselves get a taste of the requirements of being a first team member.  He’s explained that they have to perform, to make the most of their opportunity.  Hasn't football, at all levels, always been the same?  It’s dog eat dog.  You have to perform all the time, now more than ever. Those who work hard, and not necessarily the most talented, get to have careers.  Twas ever thus

Hasn’t he said that he has to be sure that a young player won’t be destroyed by the experience of playing in the first team?  In these somewhat softer times aren’t we all aware of the mental health of individuals in a very tough work place - David Clowes directly referred to it in relation to Rosenior, for example.  Warne has said that he has seen a player’s career destroyed by being thrown in at the deep end too soon; Will Hughes (for example) was introduced gently - played on the wing/played for a few minutes at the end of a game before he was allowed to play regularly.  I was there at Steve Powell’s full debut v Liverpool.  It wasn’t his actual debut if I recall correctly.  But Steve (like Tom Huddleston) was a freak of football nature - a 16 year old in a man’s body, steeped in football from his father and with the mental strength to go with it.  There’s a reason that boys very rarely play men’s professional football. Shouldn’t we be glad that a senior member of our management team has the long term career prospects of our youngest players at heart rather than short term gain?  If you were a parent of someone coming through wouldn’t you want your son (or daughter) to be looked after?  We’re a tough crowd in a tough business and I don’t want a player destroyed by a poor performance in front of a Pride Park crowd. I want a manager to play someone when he thinks that player is ready, not before, and if he errs on the side of caution then good. Better that than destroying a career.

And what experience do our current academy players have to bring?  It’s not a winning experience, that’s for sure.  And lest anyone thinks I’m criticising, I’m not.  The academy was pillaged to help us have a club to support.  16/17/18 year olds couldn’t cope with under 21 football last season and they’re struggling again this season despite additions, so how are they going to cope with League 1 football? But Warne has described the regular meetings he and his staff have with those in charge of the academy (and recruitment) where they discuss who is ready for the opportunity, initially to train with the first team and then to show what they can do.  Shouldn’t we applaud that approach?

By all means criticise Warne for team selection or substitutions or formations or whatever if you want to but let’s not manufacture a lack of interest in young players coming through our academy as (yet) another stick to beat him with

Where have I stated I believe Warne is lying to us? I actually believe he's telling the truth - he believes the U21s aren't good enough for the first team.

What I disagree on is his judgement on their ability and most importantly, how they should be introduced to the first team.

Warne cited Chesterfield as a reason to to use Robinson in the first team. A side who were 3rd, behind a side curenelty top of L2 and another who are in the Playoffs. They would give most L1 sides a tough game.

Warne has referred to 'trust' a few times. What he actually means by this is he only wants to sue players who are st least top half L1 quality (in his opinion), and won't trust them if they are below that level. He needs to trust the player not to make a mistake which could cost the team points (and Warne's job)

To develop players, a manager needs to trust his players. They need to have faith in the process, where youngsters will make mistakes, but improve as a result.

The academy was buzzing when Lampard was manager. He showed a serious interest in the youngsters, watched a lot of the games, knew their names, drafted a high number of them into training and gave them minutes on the pitch. He even trusted Bird to make his first league start in an important gane against Villa and called Knight up to the squad for the Playoffs.

Warne couldn't even give the correct score or name the hattrick scorer from the game he watched just a few hours earlier. You trust his judgement on if a player should or shouldn't be given a few minutes of action in the first team?

[ilkleyram]

8 minutes ago, Ghost of Clough said:

You trust his judgement on if a player should or shouldn't be given a few minutes of action in the first team?

Yup.  More than my judgement, or yours, or anyone else on this forum. 

None of us have anything to go on other than what we might see during 90 minutes on a football pitch.  I would guess the vast majority of us have no experience of being professional footballers or managers, that we won't know what is happening in any player's personal life (did you know about Mrs Vickers before Saturday, for example?  I didn't.  It's not beyond the bounds of possibility that her illness would have impacted Josh's performance in training or on the pitch), or how they react to a crowd, what their individual performance stats are, whether they're carrying an injury etc etc etc.  Warne and the Academy team have all that and much, much, much more.

It's in his interests to bring academy players through, for reasons I won't repeat.  He knows what he wants and sees the players in training. So, yes I trust his judgement.

A few years ago Cocu got slaughtered on these and other pages for playing Sibley and other youngsters in a cup match down the road.  Giving them experience, sure, but I wonder if it helped them all

I would accept that Warne (and every other manager) has to have half an eye on his continued employment.  Who wants to be sacked? Who doesn't want success?  But why wouldn't he want to 'trust' a player to deliver before he selects him? That's in the player's best interests, in Warne's interests and in our (the fans) interest - we're quick to moan if we think a player doesn't deliver as Max Bird, Jason Knight and others can testify

[winktheram]

56 minutes ago, Ghost of Clough said:

Where have I stated I believe Warne is lying to us? I actually believe he's telling the truth - he believes the U21s aren't good enough for the first team.

What I disagree on is his judgement on their ability and most importantly, how they should be introduced to the first team.

Warne cited Chesterfield as a reason to to use Robinson in the first team. A side who were 3rd, behind a side curenelty top of L2 and another who are in the Playoffs. They would give most L1 sides a tough game.

Warne has referred to 'trust' a few times. What he actually means by this is he only wants to sue players who are st least top half L1 quality (in his opinion), and won't trust them if they are below that level. He needs to trust the player not to make a mistake which could cost the team points (and Warne's job)

To develop players, a manager needs to trust his players. They need to have faith in the process, where youngsters will make mistakes, but improve as a result.

The academy was buzzing when Lampard was manager. He showed a serious interest in the youngsters, watched a lot of the games, knew their names, drafted a high number of them into training and gave them minutes on the pitch. He even trusted Bird to make his first league start in an important gane against Villa and called Knight up to the squad for the Playoffs.

Warne couldn't even give the correct score or name the hattrick scorer from the game he watched just a few hours earlier. You trust his judgement on if a player should or shouldn't be given a few minutes of action in the first team?

You disagree on his judgement on their ability - wow, you must watch a lot of U16, U18 & U21 games and most of their training sessions.

[RoyMac5]

8 hours ago, winktheram said:

You disagree on his judgement on their ability - wow, you must watch a lot of U16, U18 & U21 games and most of their training sessions.

Why, how many do you think Warne watches?

[DavesaRam]

10 hours ago, ilkleyram said:

Yup.  More than my judgement, or yours, or anyone else on this forum. 

None of us have anything to go on other than what we might see during 90 minutes on a football pitch.  I would guess the vast majority of us have no experience of being professional footballers or managers, that we won't know what is happening in any player's personal life (did you know about Mrs Vickers before Saturday, for example?  I didn't.  It's not beyond the bounds of possibility that her illness would have impacted Josh's performance in training or on the pitch), or how they react to a crowd, what their individual performance stats are, whether they're carrying an injury etc etc etc.  Warne and the Academy team have all that and much, much, much more.

It's in his interests to bring academy players through, for reasons I won't repeat.  He knows what he wants and sees the players in training. So, yes I trust his judgement.

A few years ago Cocu got slaughtered on these and other pages for playing Sibley and other youngsters in a cup match down the road.  Giving them experience, sure, but I wonder if it helped them all

I would accept that Warne (and every other manager) has to have half an eye on his continued employment.  Who wants to be sacked? Who doesn't want success?  But why wouldn't he want to 'trust' a player to deliver before he selects him? That's in the player's best interests, in Warne's interests and in our (the fans) interest - we're quick to moan if we think a player doesn't deliver as Max Bird, Jason Knight and others can testify

He didn’t pit a load of youngsters into the first team “for their development”, it was to rest and protect his senior players in a match he wasn’t bothered about.

It was at the City Ground, and the majority of the team had never played at that level before, and we were completely played off the park. Then add in a packed ground in a local derby and all it could have done is a huge amount of damage to those young lads.

It was also a tough call for all those Rams fans who turned up and had nothing to watch. Cocu did admit to under-estimating the importance of a local derby match.