Who wants to live forever?

[Carl Sagan]

Inspired by the "old people" topic on the forum, I'm interested in people's views on longevity. There's been a Radio 4 series about it these last couple of weeks, and some best-selling books are now out there. Silicon Valley is investing billions of dollars. Before the industrial revolution, life expectancy everywhere in the world was under 40 (not only because of infant mortality, but that contributed). Nowadays, with advances in science and the world becoming richer, nowhere has life expectancy under 40. In much of the developed world it is over 80. And the line on the graph where life expectancy is highest, continues to be straight, implying we are nowhere near reaching the limit. 

An idea is to reach life expectancy "escape velocity" where the graph rises by more than one year each year, so we always stay ahead of the curve. Currently it rises about three months every year, which isn't enough. But new techniques and new drugs are coming on stream all the time.

But there is opposition. Some people (in the circles I move in, these people are called "deathists") seem to believe death brings meaning to life. To many nowadays, this itself seems an old-fashioned view. Imagine nobody died, and then the government brought in a law saying everybody had to die before or around their 100th birthday. Would death bring meaning to life then? One of the thinkers I've worked with a lot wrote a (very) short story to encourage people to think about curing death. it's called The Fable of the Dragon-Tyrant: https://nickbostrom.com/fable/dragon

No one wants to live forever in a frail, increasingly infirm body. The idea I'm talking about is to restore us, removing the hallmarks of aging. It may be possible to do this using drugs. Another option is to freeze your body (or just your brain) and plan to be revived in the future when immortality beckons. Another possibility is to be uploaded into a virtual reality future, which may be the end result of freezing your brain anyway.

Think of it. Perhaps we'll be able to live long enough to see the Rams return to the Premier League!

[Grumpy Git]

Brian May?

[maxjam]

I'd like to put off the Grim Reaper for as long as possible tbh.  Especially if science advances enough to give us our 25yo bodies back again rather than just getting older and older or uploading our mind into an advanced robot or whatever.

Of course it would have to go hand in hand with colonizing the moon, Mars and beyond else we'd quickly run out of room, but I'd absolutely be up for living 'forever' in a Star Trek kinda universe in which I'd spend my time exploring the galaxy whilst popping back to Earth for a holiday every now and then!

Life gives meaning to life - you only get one shot and now I've taken early retirement I try to make every day count.  I've never really been that interested in history, the future has always been much more appealing.  I'd pay good money for the opportunity to live centuries into it!

[Carl Sagan]

21 minutes ago, Grumpy Git said:

Brian May?

Does well to start this off:

 

[TigerTedd]

1 hour ago, Carl Sagan said:

Inspired by the "old people" topic on the forum, I'm interested in people's views on longevity. There's been a Radio 4 series about it these last couple of weeks, and some best-selling books are now out there. Silicon Valley is investing billions of dollars. Before the industrial revolution, life expectancy everywhere in the world was under 40 (not only because of infant mortality, but that contributed). Nowadays, with advances in science and the world becoming richer, nowhere has life expectancy under 40. In much of the developed world it is over 80. And the line on the graph where life expectancy is highest, continues to be straight, implying we are nowhere near reaching the limit. 

An idea is to reach life expectancy "escape velocity" where the graph rises by more than one year each year, so we always stay ahead of the curve. Currently it rises about three months every year, which isn't enough. But new techniques and new drugs are coming on stream all the time.

But there is opposition. Some people (in the circles I move in, these people are called "deathists") seem to believe death brings meaning to life. To many nowadays, this itself seems an old-fashioned view. Imagine nobody died, and then the government brought in a law saying everybody had to die before or around their 100th birthday. Would death bring meaning to life then? One of the thinkers I've worked with a lot wrote a (very) short story to encourage people to think about curing death. it's called The Fable of the Dragon-Tyrant: https://nickbostrom.com/fable/dragon

No one wants to live forever in a frail, increasingly infirm body. The idea I'm talking about is to restore us, removing the hallmarks of aging. It may be possible to do this using drugs. Another option is to freeze your body (or just your brain) and plan to be revived in the future when immortality beckons. Another possibility is to be uploaded into a virtual reality future, which may be the end result of freezing your brain anyway.

Think of it. Perhaps we'll be able to live long enough to see the Rams return to the Premier League!

When I was in my 20s I thought a Logan’s run style system would be fine, full everyone at 40 I say. Now I’m 40, I’m glad we don’t have that rule. I’m sure if I get to 100 I’ll be glad we don’t have a rule to cull everyone at 100 too. 

I’m too curious about what’s going to happen tomorrow. Maybe if I live to 1000 and see and do everything there is ti see and do, then I might consider death to be the next great adventure.

Is it true that there’s a decent chance that the first person to reach 200 has probably already been born? Ie by 2200 there’s a decent chance people will be living to 200. 

imagine all the stuff you could do in that time. You could literally retire from a 40 year career at 60, and then go back to college and start an entirely different career / challenge / project. Or you could spend 60 years raising a family, and only then go and start a career. Everything doesn’t have to be such a rush. 

But we would have to expand to mars and beyond. Death is a necessary part of life at the minute. How would we possibly feed and house everyone if no one ever died?

[ilkleyram]

I’m in my late 60s and was lucky enough to be able to retire 10 years ago. After a difficult couple of years getting over not working I love my life - exercise every day, never felt fitter, though bits are dropping off - my hearing needs aids, my eyes need glasses, my joints creak, I’m on medication (low level) for cholesterol and blood pressure and my hair is largely a distant memory. I do find myself thinking about my mortality fairly frequently  though not morbidly. Death is the last great secret I have to experience. I  know I have long since passed the halfway mark in my Rams watching season tally.

In my youth 65 was old and people often died soon after retirement. Now I’m there I want to keep going but I am a deathist - never heard that expression before. I want to keep on going so long as life is comfortable and my body is not giving out. I’ve no interest in the far future - I expect it would look terrifying to today’s world, just as today’s world might be terrifying to people born 300 years ago. I’ve no interest in rounds of surgery to replace my heart or organs for the 5th time - you would end up like Trigger’s broom on its 20th handle and 10th head or whatever it was.

What I would like is the opportunity to pick the moment I go and in the UK. But that’s another debate.

[Gee SCREAMER !!]

I'd imagine if we all lived to 200 the world would be that overpopulated we'd have too survive on drinking or own piss and foraging for insects for food, everything would be covered in concrete, air pollution would be horrendous as you would only be an inch from 20 peoples farts and rubbish and the state pension would be 5 quid a week.

It's bad enough at the minute.

[ramit]

i generally lean towards the my body my business idea, except when money is involved.  If rich people can have access to extended life that others do not, that does not sit right with me, even as we already have that reality in some capacity.

Personally, i will let nature take it's course.  Anyway, it does not make sense to me that death can be an end, as in nothing will come from nothing, therefor no beginning, no end.  i have come to ponder my own mortality as of late, i had a heart attack two weeks ago and almost died.  i am 62, of course i want to live longer, i have just purchased a house in the countryside, a new life awaits and so i have stopped smoking, i exercise and will continue to do so and watch what i eat, i hate that last part btw.  But to live forever?  No, that does not appeal to me, i want to see what is next.

[Gaspode]

Having spent far too much time in old folks homes visiting elderly relatives, I'd be more than happy popping my clogs before I get to the stage where I need someone to feed me and help me to use the bathroom - if science can cure dementia and slow the aging process then I'd be fine carrying on (though sometimes reading the cobblers posted on here recently, I get to thinking another day may be a day too long....)

[RadioactiveWaste]

Na, living forever is an utterly daft idea. There's no end of writings, philosophy, cautionry tales on the subject.

I'm pretty sure everyone thinks they should've had more time, but, that's not really the same thing. I'm not sure how many people reach the final curtain thinking "OK, I'm out, it's been a good show, I'm fine with this" - the will to live is probably still raging in the most part.

Extending the amount of time lived independantly, in good health, is a different question. It's not about fending off the reaper so much as having a little more time to give.

TBH I'd rather die with dignity in my 70s than s******* myself in my 80s, but, that's easy to say in your 40s. If I felt I'd become a burden I'd probably do away with myself anyway.

 

[Stive Pesley]

Just reading this thread makes me eager to welcome the sweet release of death.

 

 

[BaaLocks]

9 hours ago, Carl Sagan said:

Another option is to freeze your body (or just your brain) and plan to be revived in the future when immortality beckons.

Walt Disney was allegedly a famous recipient of this of course. Great little conspiracy theory is that Disney called the film Frozen so as to make sure when you put the phrase "Disney, frozen" into search engines you don't end up with lots of links to crackpot theories but instead to pictures of a little girl singing 'Let it go'

9 hours ago, Carl Sagan said:

Another possibility is to be uploaded into a virtual reality future, which may be the end result of freezing your brain anyway.

Yes, Yuval Noah Harari suggests just this in his follow up book to Sapiens, Homo Deus. To the point above, the Earth cannot sustain eternal lifestyle and this planet is likely already broken beyond repair. So the solution is to upload a version of yourself, like San Junipero in Black Mirror, and be whatever you want / can afford to be.

9 hours ago, Carl Sagan said:

Think of it. Perhaps we'll be able to live long enough to see the Rams return to the Premier League!

Maybe they will have renamed it the Premiership by the time we do that

[Normanton Lad]

"The Man from earth" is a fascinating film about a man who lives a very long life. Stupid people hate this film. They say nothing happens in it. That's true. It all takes place in one room. But if you have a brain it will make you think.

I would not like to live forever because I don't want to outlive my children. There is something about this in the above film. 

I've known many childhood friends who have died and it is weird to remember them as children and then to realise some of them died long ago as old people. Rather than thinking it is your turn next you begin to think you might be immortal.

I'm as physically fit as most people 30 years younger than me. I have no pains or aches at all. My grandfather lived to be 96 and his brother missed a 100 by a couple of days so it could be that I've been lucky with my genes.

Despite feeling physically good I don't feel happy about all the changes I have seen in my life. Some old people have told me that they want to die because they are bored or because they've just had enough of life even though their bodies could carry on a few more years. I'm not as bad as that, but the thought of endless change for the worse does make me wonder if it is all worthwhile.

[Stive Pesley]

Let's be honest - anyone seriously pursuing eternal life is a chronic narcissist.  

 

[Day]

As others have said, death is necessary to avoid over population, the man that has the dream of colonising Mars can't even run a social media platform.

Won't apologise for the dig there, the guy is an absolute weapon, although I will move back on topic.

At what age are we proposing to pause ageing then, what is that optimal number to hit the pause button on, surely it would have to be past the age of fertility or you must be sterilised first.

Imagine the child maintenance you would owe for 600 kids that you've had with 500 women, as I'm telling you now 18 months into marriage, there is no way I can live a billion years with this one wife 😂

Also the idea of living on in a virtual reality world is a none starter,  no need to eat, wash, sleep with no fear of death? It would be 24/7 chaos in there!

I must admit the idea that one day all this will be over, no chance to say goodbye or clear out the fridge first is a scary thought that I try not to dwell on too much.

The idea of living forever though when you actually think about it isn't realistic in our lifetimes, can't even get a mobile phone battery that lasts a whole day so we have some way to go as a species to even start considering this.

Silicone Vally would be far better working on curing diseases and the climate issue than this idea of living forever.

[Ram-Alf]

Death is prevalent in my family, All my ancestors are dead, Lots of my relatives are dead, Both parents, 3 Sisters and 1 Brother are dead, Now in my late 60s and having a ball, Life is good, But, I wouldn't want a life to last for ever or even past 100, If I can keep going for another 20 years as I am now I'll be chuffed to bits.

What does the future hold...both good and bad, There's Children not born yet who will turn out to be great people or total loons, Those loons will have the power to destroy man kind, There's some out there now, No life has a purpose and then death follows...the End!  

[Stive Pesley]

1 hour ago, David said:

As others have said, death is necessary to avoid over population

That's a practical purpose but also as Carl says "death brings meaning to life"

If you lived forever, you'd lack the imperative to do anything. We'd become a species of procrastinators. And so very very bored 

Genuinely think that if we cracked eternal life, most people would end up killing themselves - and each other. There'd be a lot more murder if that's the only way to get rid of someone

All life on earth is designed to be finite. It's lunacy to try and change that

[Day]

1 minute ago, Stive Pesley said:

That's a practical purpose but also as Carl says "death brings meaning to life"

If you lived forever, you'd lack the imperative to do anything. We'd become a species of procrastinators. And so very very bored 

Genuinely think that if we cracked eternal life, most people would end up killing themselves - and each other. There'd be a lot more murder if that's the only way to get rid of someone

All life on earth is designed to be finite. It's lunacy to try and change that

Alternatively you might work harder creating a nicer home, more time learning new skills, hobbies, exploring the world.

I assume that if we reach eternal living, most jobs will be taken over by robots leaving us free to spend more time actually living rather than grafting all week to create billionaires.

Don't forget one of the options is only to halt aging process, doesn't make you immortal, will still see fatal car crashes, still need to look left and right crossing the road.

The likes of Putin wouldn't be on limited time to capture another country, civilians would die with soldiers in the process.

Immortality is a totally different ball game, would see us live in some kind of Marvel world, f that, imagine it. 

[maxjam]

50 minutes ago, Stive Pesley said:

That's a practical purpose but also as Carl says "death brings meaning to life"

If you lived forever, you'd lack the imperative to do anything. We'd become a species of procrastinators. And so very very bored 

I think thats all down to an individuals personality.  I'm already thinking I'll need several lifetimes to experience everything I want to on Earth at the moment!  

Assuming technology advances with life expectancy and we open up the universe to explore, what we can do and where we can go will become limitless.  Why wouldn't you want to live as long as possible to experience and learn everything you can?  

Nothing chronically narcissistic about wanting to experience life to the fullest. 

50 minutes ago, Stive Pesley said:

Genuinely think that if we cracked eternal life, most people would end up killing themselves - and each other. There'd be a lot more murder if that's the only way to get rid of someone

Perhaps currently as everything feels so grim and oppressive at the moment, but the caveat I have is we evolve into a kinda Star Trek culture - free energy, food, accommodation and travel etc and more emphasis is put on personal development, education and exploration.  We're generations away from that at present - but we're also generations away from (meaningful) space travel and any chance of eternal life.  Unless we blow ourselves up in the meantime perhaps the two will evolve at a similar time. 

50 minutes ago, Stive Pesley said:

All life on earth is designed to be finite. It's lunacy to try and change that

Not necessarily, if we crack the genetics of eternal life then we become 'God'.  The alternative is you have your three scores years and 10 then become dust/go to your religions afterlife - delete as appropriate!

Personally, I believe we came from stardust and we'll return to stardust, there is nothing else to follow. This helps me do something I enjoy everyday.  If my current good health continues I'm hoping for at least 30+ active years.  There are literally hundreds of places I want to go and see and activities I want to experience.  If you gave me an even longer life and a ship I can travel the galaxy in, I could fill as much time as life gave me no problem.

[ketteringram]

@maxjam

You sound like my polar opposite 😀