B4ev6is Posted February 1, 2023 Share Posted February 1, 2023 16 minutes ago, Gritstone Ram said: I’m not sure whether we have been treated unfairly or not. The only comparison would be how we are treated against other clubs in the same situation. In that case I don’t think we have. We have through Wigan went into adminastion and as soon as they came out they were allowed to spend what ever they liked. Betty Swollocks 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
curb Posted February 1, 2023 Share Posted February 1, 2023 Of course we were, they retrospectively changed the rules after we were punished that weren’t actually rules at the time we committed the ‘offences’, and then changed other rules after we were punished in order to allow other clubs to not get punished. They were able to bully other, smaller clubs into oblivion and tried to do the same to us, but they bit off more than they could chew, making themselves look like the incompetent organisation that they are, in front of the whole country, Parliament etc. Unfortunately now that the furore has died down they’ve crawled back under their rock, and we’ve got on with our business of playing football again. IMO It would have been nice to have done something on the anniversary of the March to remind everyone of what a useless organisation they are, but in retrospect it’s probably better that we do keep our heads down for a while. If there’s any good that comes out of our predicament, hopefully it’s that no club will have to go through what we’ve been through, that they should be helping clubs survive when they get into financial trouble and not turning the screw on them like they have done up to now. RAM1966, Curtains, R@M and 6 others 1 8 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BriggRam Posted February 1, 2023 Share Posted February 1, 2023 28 minutes ago, curb said: If there’s any good that comes out of our predicament, hopefully it’s that no club will have to go through what we’ve been through, (unless it's Birmingham) fify curb 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eatonram Posted February 1, 2023 Share Posted February 1, 2023 2 hours ago, B4ev6is said: We have through Wigan went into adminastion and as soon as they came out they were allowed to spend what ever they liked. Fair Point B4. Does anyone know how draconian Wigan's business plan was? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boycie Posted February 1, 2023 Share Posted February 1, 2023 Rewind 18 months. Have Derby fans been treated unfairly by Derby County? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve How Hard? Posted February 1, 2023 Share Posted February 1, 2023 33 minutes ago, Boycie said: Rewind 18 months. Have Derby fans been treated unfairly by Derby County? In what way? Why do I feel like this may be a trap? Tamworthram and Boycie 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BramcoteRam84 Posted February 1, 2023 Share Posted February 1, 2023 Yes we were treated unfairly by the EFL. Changed the rules retrospectively then punished us with -9 points, other clubs allowed to circumvent FFP with no come back (our neighbours down the road being one), changed the rules to help clubs out during COVID, we should have had our points reduced, we didn’t. Throw in administration-12 points and then a 2 year business plan which has no purpose other than to restrict our ability to compete, it’s nothing to do with whether we can run sustainably. I agree with a points deduction for administration but the 2 year business plan as well is ridiculously harsh. Yes we have been treated unfairly. The reason we have been treated unfairly by the EFL is Mel Morris, he pissed them off, he pissed off Steve Gibson and the EFL allowed him to wage war against Mel and Derby. We also now know the reason Derby didn’t file their accounts for years was not really due to the EFL action, it was Mel concealing the real situation from the outside world and fans that he was no longer paying the bills. Yes we were treated harshly and continue to be, All roads for our plight lead to Morris, if he’d never darkened our door we’d still be a championship club, possibly better. Thankfully we are now on the rise again with a sensible relatable owner and a relatable passionate and capable management team. I really hope Clowes and Warne can take us all the way to the prem and keep us there with team spirit and work ethic alongside a sensible transfer policy and not the ridiculous approach Forest have taken (it will come back to bite them if not this year then at some point in the next 2 or 3 - look at Everton) Betty Swollocks, RAM1966 and Steve How Hard? 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimbobram Posted February 1, 2023 Share Posted February 1, 2023 43 minutes ago, Boycie said: Rewind 18 months. Have Derby fans been treated unfairly by Derby County? A number of individuals who were trusted to the club nearly killed us. We were treated unfairly by them. As mich as we can blame the EFL, we knew the rules of coming out of administration and we are still under those restrictions. Personally, I think that is fair and I would much rather be here not being able to spend fees, than having no club to watch Betty Swollocks 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
plymouthram Posted February 1, 2023 Share Posted February 1, 2023 It's a fine line that Mel took, Leicester escaped punishment by getting promoted to the protected promised land of the Premiership. QPR did the same (at Derby's expense) and then Villa who was also close to being in the crap got promotion through the play-offs. Mel gambled and it did'nt pay off. I think the EFL wanted to stamp out previous and future gambling clubs by hitting a well known big club hard and that just happened to be us. The only bug I have with the EFL, was when Muddlesboro and a gobby yank from Wycombe were trying to claim loss of monies for one, not making the play-offs and the other getting relegated because we were not deducted points in 2 different seasons for allegedly wrong doing. It was down to the EFL to deduct us points in 2 separate seasons for any wrong doing, but they backed them on the arguement. Betty Swollocks, vonwright, Crewton and 1 other 2 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boycie Posted February 1, 2023 Share Posted February 1, 2023 1 hour ago, Steve How Hard? said: In what way? Why do I feel like this may be a trap? Over spending and reckless accounting practices? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve How Hard? Posted February 2, 2023 Share Posted February 2, 2023 6 hours ago, Boycie said: Over spending and reckless accounting practices? I see says the blind man. Apologies fot thinking it wasn't a serious question. I think it was more a case of being misled by the people running the old Derby County than being treated unfairly. Thank God the new Derby County is in much safer hands. Boycie and FlyBritishMidland 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RoyMac5 Posted February 2, 2023 Share Posted February 2, 2023 Apropos of nothing, how many fans are there out there that think the EFL let us off lightly? And that's not fair? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Curtains Posted February 2, 2023 Author Share Posted February 2, 2023 (edited) https://www.thesun.co.uk/sport/21245085/biggest-shake-up-football-ownership-in-years-leaked/ https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/21246101/european-super-league-debacle-best-thing-to-happen-football/ https://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/football/news/20-premier-league-clubs-sign-27200650 https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-11703467/Government-football-charter-LEAKED-owners-unable-prove-source-wealth-BARRED.html Edited February 2, 2023 by Curtains Added Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DavesaRam Posted February 2, 2023 Share Posted February 2, 2023 On 31/01/2023 at 15:23, duncanjwitham said: Unless he had a spare £50m+ burning a hole in his back pocket, I suspect not. It was a matter of time until HMRC or MSD came calling for what we owe them. And having the stadium and training ground repossessed by MSD possibly would have put us in a worse position. In terms of the EFL, there's no doubt we were badly treated. Having the ground valued by a guy that knew nothing about valuing sports stadiums. The amortization charge off the back of an "expert" who literally did not know the rules he was supposedly an expert on. Points deductions for offences under rules that were subsequently changed to make sure other clubs didn't break them. Various demands that the administrators break the law or they'd kick us out of the league. Rewriting administration law on a whim to benefit the parasite clubs. An apparently harsher enforced business-plan than any other club has been forced under. I could go on... AAAANNNNNDDDDD: the amortisation rule, which is a valid method in the real world, wasn’t even on the EFL rule book until early last year, some 3 or 4 years after we were supposed to have broken it. So thar, along with all the nasty’s which the EFL oversaw during this case should leave the EFL wide open to a restriction if practice prosecution on a massive scale. Carl Sagan, Phoenix and Betty Swollocks 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Betty Swollocks Posted February 2, 2023 Share Posted February 2, 2023 12 hours ago, jimbobram said: A number of individuals who were trusted to the club nearly killed us. We were treated unfairly by them. As mich as we can blame the EFL, we knew the rules of coming out of administration and we are still under those restrictions. Personally, I think that is fair and I would much rather be here not being able to spend fees, than having no club to watch I agree with your sentiments, but it will only become fair if/when another club goes into administration, they are met with the same severity as we were. Wigan for instance, were allowed to pay fees after a few months. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MadAmster Posted February 2, 2023 Share Posted February 2, 2023 On 31/01/2023 at 15:59, RoyMac5 said: Doesn't mean they were either. Them's the rules of the EFL Club. The amortisation (player depreciation) issue. It's a weird one. Under UK Government accounting rules (FRS102), the methodology used by DCFC under MM (he told the EFL he was going to use that method in 2015, why did it take them 4 years to decide it was "illegal" under EFL rules?) is 100% legal and used by many firms. In 2019 there wasn't a specific EFL rule disallowing its use. The first tribunal, which contained some accountants (logical when it's an accounting issue) found the club not guilty. The EFL decided to appeal, on the very last day they could lodge an appeal. The appeal committee contained ZERO accountants to adjudge this accounting issue. They found DCFC guilty. We had to amend and resubmit several years accounts and the end result was we were seen to have broken FFP limits in, IIRC, 3 seasons. That led to the 9 point deduction. Several months later, the EFL introduced a new rule disallowing the methodology DCFC had used. Yes, that's right. They made a rule to stop anyone else doing it. So, why did we get found guilty. The answer is that they have, alongside the specific rules, a catch all get out clause to the effect that they can decide something is wrong if they feel like it. In this case DCFC was using a different amortisation methodology to the rest of the Championship sides and that was, somehow, despite being legal, unfair to the other clubs. Did we get shafted? IMO most definitely. Why were we shafted? Again, this is a personal opinion. MM had ruffled too many EFL feathers and was involved in a spat with another SBC club chairman and together they saw a way to "get their own back". Move to 2023 and it seems Chelsea are doing the same, or something very similar. UEFA will be changing their rules next season to stop anybody else doing it. Chelsea have got in first and will get away with it. Strangely enough, I'm glad someone got burnt, unhappy it was us but I sincerely hope that the EFL and PL (hopefully UEFA and FIFA too) change the rules in order to ensure no other club can get into the situation we were in. Betty Swollocks, Jackal, Curtains and 5 others 1 7 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MadAmster Posted February 2, 2023 Share Posted February 2, 2023 13 hours ago, BramcoteRam84 said: Yes we were treated unfairly by the EFL. Changed the rules retrospectively then punished us with -9 points, other clubs allowed to circumvent FFP with no come back (our neighbours down the road being one), changed the rules to help clubs out during COVID, we should have had our points reduced, we didn’t. Throw in administration-12 points and then a 2 year business plan which has no purpose other than to restrict our ability to compete, it’s nothing to do with whether we can run sustainably. I agree with a points deduction for administration but the 2 year business plan as well is ridiculously harsh. Yes we have been treated unfairly. The reason we have been treated unfairly by the EFL is Mel Morris, he pissed them off, he pissed off Steve Gibson and the EFL allowed him to wage war against Mel and Derby. We also now know the reason Derby didn’t file their accounts for years was not really due to the EFL action, it was Mel concealing the real situation from the outside world and fans that he was no longer paying the bills. Yes we were treated harshly and continue to be, All roads for our plight lead to Morris, if he’d never darkened our door we’d still be a championship club, possibly better. Thankfully we are now on the rise again with a sensible relatable owner and a relatable passionate and capable management team. I really hope Clowes and Warne can take us all the way to the prem and keep us there with team spirit and work ethic alongside a sensible transfer policy and not the ridiculous approach Forest have taken (it will come back to bite them if not this year then at some point in the next 2 or 3 - look at Everton) A 2 year business plan is an EFL requirement for all clubs coming out of Administration. The EFL has a sort of skeleton, the club puts the meat on the bones and then it's down to the EFL whether they accept the plan or ask for amendments. To the best of my knowledge, DCFC's plan was accepted first time. They didn't write it, we did. Mucker1884, FlyBritishMidland and BramcoteRam84 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Curtains Posted February 2, 2023 Author Share Posted February 2, 2023 13 minutes ago, MadAmster said: The amortisation (player depreciation) issue. It's a weird one. Under UK Government accounting rules (FRS102), the methodology used by DCFC under MM (he told the EFL he was going to use that method in 2015, why did it take them 4 years to decide it was "illegal" under EFL rules?) is 100% legal and used by many firms. In 2019 there wasn't a specific EFL rule disallowing its use. The first tribunal, which contained some accountants (logical when it's an accounting issue) found the club not guilty. The EFL decided to appeal, on the very last day they could lodge an appeal. The appeal committee contained ZERO accountants to adjudge this accounting issue. They found DCFC guilty. We had to amend and resubmit several years accounts and the end result was we were seen to have broken FFP limits in, IIRC, 3 seasons. That led to the 9 point deduction. Several months later, the EFL introduced a new rule disallowing the methodology DCFC had used. Yes, that's right. They made a rule to stop anyone else doing it. So, why did we get found guilty. The answer is that they have, alongside the specific rules, a catch all get out clause to the effect that they can decide something is wrong if they feel like it. In this case DCFC was using a different amortisation methodology to the rest of the Championship sides and that was, somehow, despite being legal, unfair to the other clubs. Did we get shafted? IMO most definitely. Why were we shafted? Again, this is a personal opinion. MM had ruffled too many EFL feathers and was involved in a spat with another SBC club chairman and together they saw a way to "get their own back". Move to 2023 and it seems Chelsea are doing the same, or something very similar. UEFA will be changing their rules next season to stop anybody else doing it. Chelsea have got in first and will get away with it. Strangely enough, I'm glad someone got burnt, unhappy it was us but I sincerely hope that the EFL and PL (hopefully UEFA and FIFA too) change the rules in order to ensure no other club can get into the situation we were in. Best post ever. Good to see you from “Come on you Rams” mate. DavesaRam, MadAmster and RAM1966 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reggie Greenwood Posted February 2, 2023 Share Posted February 2, 2023 1 hour ago, Curtains said: https://www.thesun.co.uk/sport/21245085/biggest-shake-up-football-ownership-in-years-leaked/ https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/21246101/european-super-league-debacle-best-thing-to-happen-football/ https://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/football/news/20-premier-league-clubs-sign-27200650 https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-11703467/Government-football-charter-LEAKED-owners-unable-prove-source-wealth-BARRED.html Proof of legitimate funds might prove problematic for one of our near neighbours ? Eddie, Betty Swollocks and Curtains 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Curtains Posted February 2, 2023 Author Share Posted February 2, 2023 1 minute ago, Reggie Greenwood said: Proof of legitimate funds might prove problematic for one of our near neighbours ? They spend what they like. Just think if they hadn’t got promoted they may have been going where we are now. Crewton 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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