Warne's managerial start at Rotherham (it wasn't very good)

[Tamworthram]

1 hour ago, Ghost of Clough said:

Then why let Rosenior recruit with his own style in mind. It added an unnecessary risk on the players we were signing not suiting a future manger's style. The likes of Chester, Hourihane and McGoldrick will be on a decent wage for L1 standards. Davies, Stearman, Forsyth, although adding depth don't appear to be Warne type players either. That's a lot of money being spent on wages to players Warne very likely doesn't want.

If, as you believe Rosenior was never going to get the job, then why not recruit to suit the style of manager Clowes did want?

That’s a very good point. I don’t know the answer. All I can think of is that he had to recruit some players just to put a squad together and he was allowed to sign these as they appeared to be quality players who would add to any squad in league 1. I just find it hard to believe that Clowes would have relieved him of his duties so early when he was doing “OK” given the hand he was dealt. Maybe Clowes is more ruthless than we think which, is a little concerning.

Edited October 27, 2022 by Tamworthram

[RoyMac5]

1 hour ago, Tamworthram said:

That’s a very good point. I don’t know the answer. All I can think of is that he had to recruit some players just to put a squad together and he was allowed to sign these as they appeared to be quality players who would add to any squad in league 1. I just find it hard to believe that Clowes would have relieved him of his duties so early when he was doing “OK” given the hand he was dealt. Maybe Clowes is more ruthless than we think which, is a little concerning.

I'd prefer that. ?

We had to have players in and imo most/all of these players were 'in' when it was Rooney/Rosenior. They stayed when it was just Rosey cos he's a nice guy.

[Bob The Badger]

6 hours ago, sage said:

Did he turn it around by coaching his style to existing players or by revamping the squad?

I couldn't tell.

And by that, I don't mean I've signed a non-disclosure agreement, I just mean I don't know.

My real point is that we've got the guy to walk away for a job for life - or as close as you will ever get in this game - so we have an obligation to give him half a chance.

If we go down, then I'll be calling for his head. But other than that he deserves a year, as does any manager imho.

[Ram-Alf]

5 hours ago, Brailsford Ram said:

 

For me, whatever has happened in the past, Paul Warne is our manager and we should give him time to prove if he is the man to take us back to where we want to be. Six games is not long enough for us to pass judgement.

And you were doing so well, We're football supporters 

Edited October 27, 2022 by Unlucky Alf

[Beetle]

8 hours ago, RoyMac5 said:

Yes we can all see that. What we are asking is WHY isn't it good enough?

We've seen these same players play some very good exciting football, so when we don't we ask why not.

I'm not sure we've seen these players play some very good football. I can't remember when we were last a consistent goal threat, we have certainly kept the ball well over the last couple of years or so. We've not played exciting attacking football for some time now.

[May Contain Nuts]

Can't say I understand this thread tbh, I'm not sure what looking at his first season at Rotherham is going to give us much insight? He was propelled into the job almost against his will, his first one, needing a lot of encouragement and I seem to remember a Rotherham fan coming on here and telling us that the team/club was in a mess at the time. Six years later what's the relevance?

Surely better to look at his most recent full season? We at least have some things we can gather from the podcast series about that - although my memory is terrible and mainly remembers feelings rather than facts, so I'm not intending to go deep with this myself!

It was the start of March and they were 9 points clear at the top, they'd only lost 2 out of their last 30 league games.

That tells you he must have been doing something right, very right in fact, but their form went completely downhill when they started recording that, with his quote "Doing the series was a little bit like perverted therapy, but for a time it was therapy that was making us worse!” being an accurate descriptor.

For reference their league results in the months before and during the recordings...

(they had some big, distracting JPT cup games in this time too)

The closest thing we can liken it to, I suppose, is the 2014/15 season when we topped the table in January but completely fell away, finishing outside even the playoffs, but as as we all painfully remember that was mainly down to loan recalls and injuries to multiple key players.

The Rotherham slide was over a shorter period and more intense, and of course Warne managed to correct course because they got promoted on the final day of the season, finishing runners up. I don't remember from the podcasts mentions of an injury situation that came close to ours. They did lose  / not play Lapado for their final game of the season however, because he wanted out and put in a transfer request! Blimey what a dick move.

I've kind of forgotten what I was trying to say tbh. Too tired.

Something to do with what could be gathered by listening to the podcast, against this backdrop. About how I don't think he particularly sounded like he had an answer to what was going wrong during this period and was just reiterating the same thing multiple times and wasn't particularly tactical in his approach,  whether he'll have any answer to our current situation, that sort of thing.

God that sounds negative, not meant to. Clearly he must have had an answer, because they're in the Championship now, dummy!

Maybe I'll pick it up again tomorrow, maybe other people will share what they remember from listening to it or maybe this is just a  stupid pointless post that says bugger all and offers even less insight than looking at his first season at Rotherham.

 

[Guest]

2 hours ago, Kokosnuss said:

Can't say I understand this thread tbh, I'm not sure what looking at his first season at Rotherham is going to give us much insight? 
 

 

Maybe I'll pick it up again tomorrow, maybe other people will share what they remember from listening to it or maybe this is just a  stupid pointless post that says bugger all and offers even less insight than looking at his first season at Rotherham.

 

It’s true that he must have developed a lot since those early days in his (apparently unexpected) management career, but to be fair, the reason that immediately suggests itself for looking at how Warne fared at first after he took on a job at a club in far-from-ideal circumstances is that he’s just taken over at a club in far-from-ideal circumstances and there’s a perception among a fair few that it hasn’t been the best of starts (and associated concern about the prospects of this improving, which evidently it went on to do at Rotherham, but not straight away).

[Rich84]

20 hours ago, AGR said:

Apparently 9 league games was enough for Rosenior.

He's got 4 games left.

Rosenior wasn't the 'manager' though with a proper contract was he, he was in a temporary position to give the club a level of stability in the 1st few months after being on the brink of extinction,  totally different scenario.

Just a point also, unless you are a close confident of David Clowes, no one knows the full reasoning behind Rosenior not being given the job full time,  who honestly expected WR32 to jump ship within minutes of the club being saved, so maybe Clowes had not even considered LR as an option during the take-over but gave him an opportunity to prove himself? As the owner, he's looking at more than just the immediate results on the pitch, he may not have had a good rapport with LR and found him obnoxious, we just don't know.

I was supportive of LR despite not enjoying the over playing at the back and slow build up, hopeful that we would evolve,  as I am supportive of Warne despite being too direct at times and lacking control, hopeful that we will evolve.

[The Scarlet Pimpernel]

The great unknown in this debate is the conversation between David Clowes and Paul Warne during the job offer discussions. Was style of play and the players at his disposal discussed? Surely it must have been and assuming so, what was the agreement/conclusion? Is David clowes now wringing his hands thinking, this isn't what was promised, or is he quietly content watching an expected and planned revolution. 

I have my doubts about Warne, this is a huge opportunity for him but he has no experience of a club with expectations. To an extent Rotherham became a free ride.... Apart from last season It isn't and never will be at Derby. 

Edited October 28, 2022 by The Scarlet Pimpernel

[Guest]

2 hours ago, The Scarlet Pimpernel said:

this is a huge opportunity for him but he has no experience of a club with expectations. To an extent Rotherham became a free ride.... Apart from last season It isn't and never will be at Derby. 

Good point. I'm not sure what kind of a mess we'd have to be in for a manager to survive a W4 D4 L21 record at Derby

(Haha, sent that and then remembered the suppressed 2007-08 season which Jewell technically survived!)

Edited October 28, 2022 by Guest
failing memory

[Oldben]

3 hours ago, Rich84 said:

Rosenior wasn't the 'manager' though with a proper contract was he, he was in a temporary position to give the club a level of stability in the 1st few months after being on the brink of extinction,  totally different scenario.

Just a point also, unless you are a close confident of David Clowes, no one knows the full reasoning behind Rosenior not being given the job full time,  who honestly expected WR32 to jump ship within minutes of the club being saved, so maybe Clowes had not even considered LR as an option during the take-over but gave him an opportunity to prove himself? As the owner, he's looking at more than just the immediate results on the pitch, he may not have had a good rapport with LR and found him obnoxious, we just don't know.

I was supportive of LR despite not enjoying the over playing at the back and slow build up, hopeful that we would evolve,  as I am supportive of Warne despite being too direct at times and lacking control, hopeful that we will evolve.

Why would you spend millions on a football team and give the job full time to a manager with no proper experience.

As the new owner, logic dictates you give the job to the best manager you can get which in derbys case is 3 time league one promotion manager pw.

 

[Ghost of Clough]

1 minute ago, Oldben said:

Why would you spend millions on a football team and give the job full time to a manager with no proper experience.

As the new owner, logic dictates you give the job to the best manager you can get which in derbys case is 3 time league one promotion manager pw.

Best based on what? Record at a small club playing a style completely different to the one here?

What makes you think Rosenior wasn't the best we could get? His record with the exact same players is better than the "greatest L1 manager of all time". That's also with him not being able to bring in his own staff.

[duncanjwitham]

37 minutes ago, Oldben said:

Why would you spend millions on a football team and give the job full time to a manager with no proper experience.

As the new owner, logic dictates you give the job to the best manager you can get which in derbys case is 3 time league one promotion manager pw.

 

You could make exactly the same arguments about the people making football decisions at board-level.  As far as I know, there's nobody higher-up making decisions that has any experience of running a football club.  I don't doubt their business-credentials, but giving Rosenior 10 games to build a squad, then replacing him with a radically different manager who has a different set of squad-requirements doesn't exactly fill me with confidence that they understand what it takes to run a football club successfully.

[TomTom92]

Manager appointments are a lottery, i mean Ian Dowie and Gary Megson have promotion to the PL on their cv but it doesn't make them good managers.

Nathan Jones left Luton for Stoke which was a sensible decision but with Stoke's form patchy at best they got rid much to their fans delight. Now he's back at Luton tearing it up and a hot property again. 

We were apparently sniffing round Warne in the summer but maybe DC thought the best chance of getting signings in the building was to give LR a chance? Or maybe Warne wasn't interested at the time? However when we appointed Warne he was in demand by championship clubs so clearly it wasn't an illogical move for us to appoint him. Sure, his preferred style is completely different to what we've been used too, but if you get the right manager at the right time that can be the start of a beautiful thing e.g. Mac 1, Bielsa, Cooper. 

It's now looking like our eggs might be in the basket for next season. But to be fair how many seasons did it take Leeds, Forest, Sheff Utd etc to get out of this god forsaken league? Clubs of this size don't end up in league 1 off the back of one bad season, its usually down to a lot of bad business off the field for a number of years. 

Will Warne be a success? God knows, but I do think Clowes was well within his rights to appoint him.

[Bald Eagle's Barmy Army]

If we don't win tomorrow things could get noisy at the final whistle.

We then have 5 tough away matches on the trot with a depleted squad. 

I can't imagine what the fan base will be like if we don't win any of these games. 

[Rammy03]

1 hour ago, Ghost of Clough said:

Best based on what? Record at a small club playing a style completely different to the one here?

What makes you think Rosenior wasn't the best we could get? His record with the exact same players is better than the "greatest L1 manager of all time". That's also with him not being able to bring in his own staff.

I don't know why you keep banging on about Rosenior's record. It's disingenuous. The sample size is very small. 

[Guest]

27 minutes ago, Rammy03 said:

I don't know why you keep banging on about Rosenior's record. It's disingenuous. The sample size is very small. 

Exactly - in terms of success it can't be used to prove his superiority (7th in the league after 9 games), nor to prove his inferiority (no away wins/goals). Everything else is a comparison of styles and predictions about what lay/lies ahead under either LR/PW.

Edited October 28, 2022 by Guest

[Ghost of Clough]

1 hour ago, Rammy03 said:

I don't know why you keep banging on about Rosenior's record. It's disingenuous. The sample size is very small. 

Becuase there is a clear trend in how a manager has performed after 12 games and how he'll perform in his overall spell in charge. The evidence I've shown proves that.

[Rammy03]

1 hour ago, Ghost of Clough said:

Becuase there is a clear trend in how a manager has performed after 12 games and how he'll perform in his overall spell in charge. The evidence I've shown proves that.

Well that's b******* because we were 18th after Jim Smith's first 12 games

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Ghost of Clough said:

Becuase there is a clear trend in how a manager has performed after 12 games and how he'll perform in his overall spell in charge. The evidence I've shown proves that.

I'll be open and say I haven't gone and dug up any stats to prove you right or wrong, but given that a lot of teams experience the "new manager bounce" and given that most managers seem to get sacked eventually and presumably in most cases after a sustained run of bad results/poor prospects of success, are you sure you've proven your claim?
(These could just be exceptions, but along with the example of Jim Smith, how did Alex Ferguson get on in his first 12?)