Worst case scenario

[GB SPORTS]

5 hours ago, 1903 said:

Forgive me for barging in on your messageboard but I come in peace as a Bury fan. I have never posted on another club’s board before, this could be my first and last time. 
Firstly, the very best of luck. In cases like this it’s the fans, the innocents in all this, who suffer. We feel your pain, we too have been through the mill and beyond. 
Bury FC, the original club, were kicked out of L1 (having just won promotion) by the EFL in late August 2019,  about 3 weeks into the new season, our first half dozen fixtures were postponed so there was no record to expunge. The club was subsequently placed into administration. It remains in administration to this day but is effectively just a shell, awaiting ultimate liquidation with debts of over £12M. 
If scenario 1 above had happened we would have been reinstated at tier 6 in the pyramid. It didn’t, scenario 2 happened, and a “Phoenix” club called Bury AFC was formed by the fans and funded by the fans. It was admitted into tier 10 of the pyramid, the lowest level under FA auspices. Last season, the first full covid free season, it won promotion losing only one game. The highest home crowd was 1,885, not huge but enormous in a league where 100 or so is the norm. We ground share with Radcliffe AFC, another non league club within the borough of Bury. 
Bury AFC is not of course strictly speaking a Phoenix, but is referred to as such for ease of reference. It carries probably about 60pc of the original fan base. Not everyone has got on board but the majority have. The vibe is brilliant, partly as we are successful on the pitch of course, so never be afraid if this is your fate (it won’t be), you would still have a gas in “non league”, there are so many pluses compared to the EFL which make the match day experience highly enjoyable;  and with your fanbase you would quickly climb back up the pyramid. 

A highly unexpected turn of events happened more recently when a very small group of Bury fans emerged from nowhere with no mandate from anyone, but having apparently got strong connections with the Conservative Party. With the help of a wealthy businessman-fan now living in the USA, and with the financial help of the government which has provided up to £1M of matched funding (“levelling up”?), and the potential help of the (Labour) council, that group of fans (calling themselves Est 1885, the date of the founding of the original club) managed to buy the ground Gigg Lane, which had been subject to a charge for a loan of some £3.5M, and had fallen into a state of some disrepair. So Est 1885 have a ground but no football club, and Bury AFC are a football club with no ground (of their own). Talks are ongoing between the two with a view to a merger down the line. 

A word about the EFL. Yes as useless as a chocolate teapot but presumably facing the chop or severe reform following the government’s fan-led review. Remember the EFL is in essence the 72 clubs - it gets its power from the clubs, maybe it is useless because the clubs have only ever favoured light-touch regulation of themselves for obvious reasons, so have never given the EFL the powers it really needed to provide effective governance. 

So the very best of luck and whatever happens - there is no need to despair. 

Good luck on your way back up. 

Obviously we have a connection through "that" FA Cup final. 

In my view the governance of football needs to be removed from any club self interest altogether and be completely independent, doubt it will ever happen though

[curb]

6 hours ago, 1903 said:

Forgive me for barging in on your messageboard but I come in peace as a Bury fan. I have never posted on another club’s board before, this could be my first and last time. 
Firstly, the very best of luck. In cases like this it’s the fans, the innocents in all this, who suffer. We feel your pain, we too have been through the mill and beyond. 
Bury FC, the original club, were kicked out of L1 (having just won promotion) by the EFL in late August 2019,  about 3 weeks into the new season, our first half dozen fixtures were postponed so there was no record to expunge. The club was subsequently placed into administration. It remains in administration to this day but is effectively just a shell, awaiting ultimate liquidation with debts of over £12M. 
If scenario 1 above had happened we would have been reinstated at tier 6 in the pyramid. It didn’t, scenario 2 happened, and a “Phoenix” club called Bury AFC was formed by the fans and funded by the fans. It was admitted into tier 10 of the pyramid, the lowest level under FA auspices. Last season, the first full covid free season, it won promotion losing only one game. The highest home crowd was 1,885, not huge but enormous in a league where 100 or so is the norm. We ground share with Radcliffe AFC, another non league club within the borough of Bury. 
Bury AFC is not of course strictly speaking a Phoenix, but is referred to as such for ease of reference. It carries probably about 60pc of the original fan base. Not everyone has got on board but the majority have. The vibe is brilliant, partly as we are successful on the pitch of course, so never be afraid if this is your fate (it won’t be), you would still have a gas in “non league”, there are so many pluses compared to the EFL which make the match day experience highly enjoyable;  and with your fanbase you would quickly climb back up the pyramid. 

A highly unexpected turn of events happened more recently when a very small group of Bury fans emerged from nowhere with no mandate from anyone, but having apparently got strong connections with the Conservative Party. With the help of a wealthy businessman-fan now living in the USA, and with the financial help of the government which has provided up to £1M of matched funding (“levelling up”?), and the potential help of the (Labour) council, that group of fans (calling themselves Est 1885, the date of the founding of the original club) managed to buy the ground Gigg Lane, which had been subject to a charge for a loan of some £3.5M, and had fallen into a state of some disrepair. So Est 1885 have a ground but no football club, and Bury AFC are a football club with no ground (of their own). Talks are ongoing between the two with a view to a merger down the line. 

A word about the EFL. Yes as useless as a chocolate teapot but presumably facing the chop or severe reform following the government’s fan-led review. Remember the EFL is in essence the 72 clubs - it gets its power from the clubs, maybe it is useless because the clubs have only ever favoured light-touch regulation of themselves for obvious reasons, so have never given the EFL the powers it really needed to provide effective governance. 

So the very best of luck and whatever happens - there is no need to despair. 

Thanks for that, and hope it continues to go well for you.

I think we’re into the end game ourselves now, somethings got to happen in the next few weeks or we’re done.

The way I feel about league football now I personally wouldn’t mind a phoenix club, I go to a lot of non league games anyway, but I think it would be too much of a shock to a lot of our fans.

Good luck for next season, I’ll look out for your results.

[jimbobram]

On 11/06/2022 at 20:27, Chopper said:

I know about the odds, and what Nixons said, and that more logical minded people than me know that it wont happen, but what happens after liquidation has entered my mind a few times.

It has also been something I've been very changeable with during these last few months.

During the initial "grief" I tend to think, I'd be done with football. More and more of it turns me off these days. I may be a passive viewer of some games, but there are no stakes.

Then my mind goes to Alfreton Town, live here and have gone to a fair few games as a kid. Heh, probably saw Pickford, and Flint before most did. I like the club, like what Wayne Bradley's done with it (There is a proper local owner) and I hope they have every success they can.

But.

I was born in Derby, I am a Derbean. I joke that I wish I was born in North London, so I can take my pick, but I wasn't and gladly so. To my mates a common rant back in the day was: "Right that's it I'm supporting Villa", but everyone knew there was no quitting, I am Derby. Always was, and if a Pheonix team rose, it would be a team that is based in my city, so it's my team. I am a "first generation" Derby fan, my family not bothered about football really, I developed the passion myself. That was before I knew about Clough, Taylor, Mackay et al, I chose a Derby with zero history in my eyes (I was 6) can an adult me do no less?

I was born in London, and moved to Derby. Derby made me fall in love with football

Edited June 13, 2022 by jimbobram

[CBX1985]

On 13/06/2022 at 20:03, jimbobram said:

I was born in London, and moved to Derby. Derby made me fall in love with football

I was born and raised in far south west Wales, 75 miles away from the nearest major city, Swansea.  Being 9 when I started liking football, everyone there supported Man Utd.  Never one for following the crowd, being someone who also loves numbers (and the lottery having only recently started), I used a bingo machine and put ninety teams with numbers on them.  I picked out Derby totally at random and supported them every since - it coincided nicely with the beginning of the Jim Smith era.  

I had absolutely no connections with this City, and hadn't even visited there until I was 18 and able to go by myself.  

I moved away to work in London, and started going up here and there to games.  As my career progressed, I could afford to move out of the smoke.  With more money, and easy access to the M1, I got myself a season ticket and commuted to most home games and it gets me away from the wife for a few hours ? ).  I literally drive to the ground and home again - have never really actually explored the City itself.

I now have an array of teams nearby to support. Not sure I could, though.  If the worst happens, I think I will go with the phoenix.  When they rise to Lg1, like AFC Wimbledon did, I would regret not having supported them through it all.  

This afternoon proves to me what would be lost.  I'm bored bored bored.

 

[PistoldPete]

On 12/06/2022 at 23:48, 1903 said:

Forgive me for barging in on your messageboard but I come in peace as a Bury fan. I have never posted on another club’s board before, this could be my first and last time. 
Firstly, the very best of luck. In cases like this it’s the fans, the innocents in all this, who suffer. We feel your pain, we too have been through the mill and beyond. 
Bury FC, the original club, were kicked out of L1 (having just won promotion) by the EFL in late August 2019,  about 3 weeks into the new season, our first half dozen fixtures were postponed so there was no record to expunge. The club was subsequently placed into administration. It remains in administration to this day but is effectively just a shell, awaiting ultimate liquidation with debts of over £12M. 
If scenario 1 above had happened we would have been reinstated at tier 6 in the pyramid. It didn’t, scenario 2 happened, and a “Phoenix” club called Bury AFC was formed by the fans and funded by the fans. It was admitted into tier 10 of the pyramid, the lowest level under FA auspices. Last season, the first full covid free season, it won promotion losing only one game. The highest home crowd was 1,885, not huge but enormous in a league where 100 or so is the norm. We ground share with Radcliffe AFC, another non league club within the borough of Bury. 
Bury AFC is not of course strictly speaking a Phoenix, but is referred to as such for ease of reference. It carries probably about 60pc of the original fan base. Not everyone has got on board but the majority have. The vibe is brilliant, partly as we are successful on the pitch of course, so never be afraid if this is your fate (it won’t be), you would still have a gas in “non league”, there are so many pluses compared to the EFL which make the match day experience highly enjoyable;  and with your fanbase you would quickly climb back up the pyramid. 

A highly unexpected turn of events happened more recently when a very small group of Bury fans emerged from nowhere with no mandate from anyone, but having apparently got strong connections with the Conservative Party. With the help of a wealthy businessman-fan now living in the USA, and with the financial help of the government which has provided up to £1M of matched funding (“levelling up”?), and the potential help of the (Labour) council, that group of fans (calling themselves Est 1885, the date of the founding of the original club) managed to buy the ground Gigg Lane, which had been subject to a charge for a loan of some £3.5M, and had fallen into a state of some disrepair. So Est 1885 have a ground but no football club, and Bury AFC are a football club with no ground (of their own). Talks are ongoing between the two with a view to a merger down the line. 

A word about the EFL. Yes as useless as a chocolate teapot but presumably facing the chop or severe reform following the government’s fan-led review. Remember the EFL is in essence the 72 clubs - it gets its power from the clubs, maybe it is useless because the clubs have only ever favoured light-touch regulation of themselves for obvious reasons, so have never given the EFL the powers it really needed to provide effective governance. 

So the very best of luck and whatever happens - there is no need to despair. 

Thanks 1903. I feel your pain. I must admit I had thought the real Bury was the other one. I would not support a club set up with a similar name. I don’t know why it has taken so long to get the club back again. It’s all confusing. But however it plays out the best of luck to you. 

[Leeds Ram]

If the worst did happen I would follow the phoenix club and see how it felt. If it didn't have the same feel then I would ultimately walk away and not really touch football. Football for me at least is derby county. 

[strawhillram]

I’ve lost interest in football generally. Used to live for it.  At  the moment I only remain  interested in it because of DCFC. 
If  the worst happens I’ll give up on football completely.
Gives me more room for other activities that we are less stressful

[chadlad]

On 11/06/2022 at 16:10, Red Ram said:

Not too soon at all. It's two weeks before the League One fixtures are due to be out. The EFL need to be sure we can actually complete the season before scheduling them. Things are going to need to happen at record speed if we're going to survive. I still think we probably will but it's not far off 50:50 at this point. We need to accept that liquidation is a realistic possibility. The question asked by Jimbobob are entirely legitimate at this point. Personally I'd like to know the answers - it would make it easier to deal with the possibility that it might happen!

Agreed. I have been a DCFC supporter for a long time and would be extremely upset if my football club, an original league member were be liquidated as a result of incompetent and irresponsible financial management.

Having said that if the result is a phoenix club, say a Derby United, renting and playing at Pride Park having purchased some of the DCFC assets and playing in the National League and owned by Derby supporters - I would almost certainly continue to support a Derby based team.

[Yani P]

I can't see liquidation happening, we already know there are local people prepared to fund the club if needed to fulfill the seasons fixtures. It's a mess, of that there is no doubt. But can't see liquidation happening.

[chadlad]

3 hours ago, Yani P said:

I can't see liquidation happening, we already know there are local people prepared to fund the club if needed to fulfill the seasons fixtures. It's a mess, of that there is no doubt. But can't see liquidation happening.

So how long have we been in Administration?

Are we now any further forward?

Lots of interest, lots of time-wasters.

 

 

 

 

[Tyler Durden]

8 minutes ago, chadlad said:

So how long have we been in Administration?

Are we now any further forward?

Lots of interest, lots of time-wasters.

 

 

 

 

Lots of interest? There's only been one party who's put a verified bid in to buy the club so not sure where you get lots of interest from?

[europia]

2 hours ago, chadlad said:

So how long have we been in Administration?

Are we now any further forward?

Lots of interest, lots of time-wasters.

 

 

 

 

Perhaps, one fine day, when all of the NDA's have expired, we will get the full story of what has been going on behind the scenes of this shady business. Then again, maybe not......

[Asanovic70]

The longer this process drags on, the less certain I feel though I like to think something will get sorted out.

However, the nightmare scenario is that Morris retains control of us. I don't know how this would work. I remember a Middlesbrough fan, during twitter spats, defending Gibson and making a comment that Morris was the one in the background still controlling proceedings. Didn't he appoint Quantuma? . In a recent article, John Percy, mentioned how Appleby had agreed a deal in January but it was mysteriously called off. Percy stated that it was Steve Morgan who was dealing with Steve Gibson

Other twitter users were cynical about Kirchner, stating that Quantuma panicked & selected him as PB due to pressure from the EFL etc. Hindsight is a wonderful thing, but why go with an unknown quantity - who we now realize was using us for his own ends/investment vehicle? - when someone proven at running a club, and the very club itself for sale, was prepared to make an offer. The choice of Kirchner meant that some of Appleby's backers went elsewhere (Riley). 

Another twitter user posted a comment along the lines that Morris would simply take us over again. That would alienate the fanbase but would he care? The club would be run on a shoestring (wages, budget) but would still command a large fan-base/Season ticket sales. The matchday revenue would still be quite significant even if it dropped by a large margin. He knows he has a captured audience. He'd make Mike Ashley look like a dream in comparison.

Perhaps Morris thinks he can claw back some of the money he has lost whilst retaining the club & the ground, which may increase in value if we return back to the second tier.

Some observers (Nixon) have pointed out that somebody along the way has to take a hit in order to enable a sale to go through. I feel Morris is not prepared to do this. And his retention of the stadium as separate from the club has proved to be the major sticking block.

 

[strawhillram]

4 minutes ago, Asanovic70 said:

The longer this process drags on, the less certain I feel though I like to think something will get sorted out.

However, the nightmare scenario is that Morris retains control of us. I don't know how this would work. I remember a Middlesbrough fan, during twitter spats, defending Gibson and making a comment that Morris was the one in the background still controlling proceedings. Didn't he appoint Quantuma? . In a recent article, John Percy, mentioned how Appleby had agreed a deal in January but it was mysteriously called off. Percy stated that it was Steve Morgan who was dealing with Steve Gibson

Other twitter users were cynical about Kirchner, stating that Quantuma panicked & selected him as PB due to pressure from the EFL etc. Hindsight is a wonderful thing, but why go with an unknown quantity - who we now realize was using us for his own ends/investment vehicle? - when someone proven at running a club, and the very club itself for sale, was prepared to make an offer. The choice of Kirchner meant that some of Appleby's backers went elsewhere (Riley). 

Another twitter user posted a comment along the lines that Morris would simply take us over again. That would alienate the fanbase but would he care? The club would be run on a shoestring (wages, budget) but would still command a large fan-base/Season ticket sales. The matchday revenue would still be quite significant even if it dropped by a large margin. He knows he has a captured audience. He'd make Mike Ashley look like a dream in comparison.

Perhaps Morris thinks he can claw back some of the money he has lost whilst retaining the club & the ground, which may increase in value if we return back to the second tier.

Some observers (Nixon) have pointed out that somebody along the way has to take a hit in order to enable a sale to go through. I feel Morris is not prepared to do this. And his retention of the stadium as separate from the club has proved to be the major sticking block.

 

I'll go nowhere near Derby if Morris "takes us over" or for a ride again.

[TheresOnlyWanChope]

26 minutes ago, Asanovic70 said:

The longer this process drags on, the less certain I feel though I like to think something will get sorted out.

However, the nightmare scenario is that Morris retains control of us. I don't know how this would work. I remember a Middlesbrough fan, during twitter spats, defending Gibson and making a comment that Morris was the one in the background still controlling proceedings. Didn't he appoint Quantuma? . In a recent article, John Percy, mentioned how Appleby had agreed a deal in January but it was mysteriously called off. Percy stated that it was Steve Morgan who was dealing with Steve Gibson

Other twitter users were cynical about Kirchner, stating that Quantuma panicked & selected him as PB due to pressure from the EFL etc. Hindsight is a wonderful thing, but why go with an unknown quantity - who we now realize was using us for his own ends/investment vehicle? - when someone proven at running a club, and the very club itself for sale, was prepared to make an offer. The choice of Kirchner meant that some of Appleby's backers went elsewhere (Riley). 

Another twitter user posted a comment along the lines that Morris would simply take us over again. That would alienate the fanbase but would he care? The club would be run on a shoestring (wages, budget) but would still command a large fan-base/Season ticket sales. The matchday revenue would still be quite significant even if it dropped by a large margin. He knows he has a captured audience. He'd make Mike Ashley look like a dream in comparison.

Perhaps Morris thinks he can claw back some of the money he has lost whilst retaining the club & the ground, which may increase in value if we return back to the second tier.

Some observers (Nixon) have pointed out that somebody along the way has to take a hit in order to enable a sale to go through. I feel Morris is not prepared to do this. And his retention of the stadium as separate from the club has proved to be the major sticking block.

 

Why would Morris take over Derby again? He has spent years trying to sell the club and failed. Morris doesn’t want to own Derby, he can’t afford it most likely anyway. 

[Asanovic70]

15 minutes ago, StrawHillRam said:

I'll go nowhere near Derby if Morris "takes us over" or for a ride again.

I was just positing a scenario, as I said, it would be extremely divisive. I'd never criticize another fan for making that choice.

But we have seen with the Glazers at Man United, another divisive ownership, that fans still turn up. I remember the depressing clip (BBC) of a Man United fan replying in the affirmative that he'd still pay £££s for his replica kit/tickets etc despite so many others objecting. 

Morris does not care about the fan-base, he could have been more flexible during administration. Kieran Maguire has mentioned in the past that his other businesses did not suffer during the pandemic, so I get the impression that he isn't in the desperate situation the late Lionel Pickering found himself, virtually losing everything.

Morris has shown a disregard towards authority (EFL) in the past, so is it so hard to imagine him showing a similar lack of respect towards Derby supporters?

But I'd like to point out that if Morris thinks retaining ownership would work, then he is fooling himself. I think it would be a bad idea in the long-term, and apathy could set in. We may get back to the Championship (Hull under the unpopular Elams), but I think most of us will never forget/forgive him for what he put the club/its playing staff/employees through.

[Asanovic70]

6 minutes ago, TheresOnlyWanChope said:

Why would Morris take over Derby again? He has spent years trying to sell the club and failed. Morris doesn’t want to own Derby, he can’t afford it most likely anyway. 

I know, but why has Morris not helped facilitate a sale then? I know we had several chancers, but other reputable parties have stepped forward (Appleby, Morgan etc).  As for not affording it, our budget/wage bill has been reduced, yet he may think he has a captured audience in the 20-25k mark. 

[Premier ram]

i will be there supporting the phoenix club , if indeed that should happen , i can just see it now Derby City with Bradley Johnson as captain