Life is politics, life is complicated

[Grumpy Git]

2 hours ago, Bob The Badger said:

I know I'm an opinionated ducker ......

? My account's been hacked!

[Bob The Badger]

8 hours ago, Ram-a-lama fa fa fa said:

do u though?

I do by people who can be arzed to type entire words and aren't married to me.

[Bob The Badger]

6 hours ago, Grumpy Git said:

? My account's been hacked!

Mine was hacked in about 1993 when I joined the internet.

Prior to then, I was a nice guy.

Apparently.

[Archied]

9 hours ago, Bob The Badger said:

In response to @RevI, personally, like to be able to dive in and out of threads. As well as seeing the opinions of people I'd rarely talk to via DM. I don't want an echo chamber like DMs create.

I know I'm an opinionated ducker but I genuinely do like being challenged. In fact, I love it!

With this topic,  I doubt there are even that many contrary opinions tbh, it's just nice to chat. 

You may be surprised, personally think the situation may be more complex than just Russia bad west good , that in no way means I think Russian ( putins) actions are right 

Edited February 25, 2022 by Archied

[EtoileSportiveDeDerby]

Man remembers a childhood/ youth with little trouble, a little inflation may be, strikes, no tinternet, not much to worry about.

Fast foorward 40 years ish and the youth of today will remember, Brexit, Covid, global warming, terrorism, war in Europe, houses they cannot afford. We have not done a great a job for our children and yet they are very inclusive, care for each other differences, much more aware of bigger issues. They deserve so much better.

[TigerTedd]

26 minutes ago, Archied said:

You may be surprised, personally think the situation may be more complex than just Russia bad west good , that in no way means I think Russian ( putins) actions are right 

There’s always two sides to every story, and history is always written by the victors. I’m willing to believe that Vlad may feel he has some justification. He feels threatened and made to look weak by NATO spreading further East. But as a species we should have evolved beyond war by now, and feeling threatened by anyone. War should never be the answer.

Why doesn’t Russia just join NATO, then they can’t feel threatened? In fact why doesn’t everyone just join a single world alliance, then no one needs to be threatened by anyone cos we’re all on the same side. 

‘Imagine there’s no countries, it’s easy if you try.’

We could really do with an alien invasion right about now, to our all our petty squabbles over territory into perspective. Although you’d think a global pandemic and a global climate catastrophe would have had the same impact, but apparently not. 

[Day]

The no politics rule was reactive, not proactive. Let's be clear about that.

Reactive to the same small number of members that were arguing and reporting posts on a daily basis.

I suspect the same small number of members will move from the Covid topic into the Russia/Ukraine topic.

I'm all for having a topic, however on the understanding that there is an automatic 7 day post restriction put in place for the every insulting/abusive post towards another member on this forum.

If you pick up 2x 7 day restrictions in under 60 days it moves to a 30 day restriction.

You post in the topic fully understanding the consequences, and any questioning of moderation is done privately.

We can have a warning above the topic to serve as a reminder.

I don't like having restrictions on any topics that can be discussed, at the same time I hate having moderators spending their days trying to moderate squabbles outside of the main purpose of this forum.

This forum was built as a response to the abusive atmosphere on the DET forum, our off topic section was a fun, light hearted distraction from the football.

As the community has grown, things have changed, there is a demand for more serious subjects, I'm not against that, however I am adamant that this will not be a free for all to become abusive.

Currently on holiday, will let the moderators who I haven't spoken to yet also sign off on this, as they are the ones who also have to run the forum.

If the majority say yes on the above, a topic will be opened by a moderator. Until then, can I ask you to respect the rules currently in place. I will link this in the moderators room and group chat in the hope a decision can be made imminently....a lot sooner than 48hrs.

[TigerTedd]

5 minutes ago, David said:

there is a demand for more serious subjects

It seems like there are a lot more serious subjects to discuss these days ? 

Enjoy your hols.

Edited February 25, 2022 by TigerTedd

[Day]

3 minutes ago, TigerTedd said:

It seems like there are a lot more serious subjects to discuss these days ? 

Enjoy your hols.

I think with the growth of social media, more people are aware of the news and what is going on in the world.

Which is a good thing.

We're not unique in that these topics tend to become abusive, both Twitter and Facebook are absolute cesspits in that regard.

If anything they have strengthened my motivation not to allow this forum to lower itself. 

Always been very open in that I would prefer a forum of 50 members that get along, than 5000 attacking each other.

Whilst the numbers of those looking to discuss issues outside of football are far less, it can feel like 5000 with the daily grind of having to resolve arguments.

An argument could be made that its poor moderation that has put this forum into the situation it is, not issuing more bans, yet that only extends the issues as no member will ever agree on their warnings.

Ultimately it's down to you lot. Behave and we don't have an issue. 

[Archied]

29 minutes ago, TigerTedd said:

There’s always two sides to every story, and history is always written by the victors. I’m willing to believe that Vlad may feel he has some justification. He feels threatened and made to look weak by NATO spreading further East. But as a species we should have evolved beyond war by now, and feeling threatened by anyone. War should never be the answer.

Why doesn’t Russia just join NATO, then they can’t feel threatened? In fact why doesn’t everyone just join a single world alliance, then no one needs to be threatened by anyone cos we’re all on the same side. 

‘Imagine there’s no countries, it’s easy if you try.’

We could really do with an alien invasion right about now, to our all our petty squabbles over territory into perspective. Although you’d think a global pandemic and a global climate catastrophe would have had the same impact, but apparently not. 

From the little I pick up his main excuse is areas of Ukraine that are populated with Russians who feel/ claim they are treated very badly,of course the nato issue is large in this too , the break up of the ussr was always going to be a cluster duck powder keg at some point ,the real problem comes when sabre rattling from both east and west coupled with MONEY and power struggles at the top dumps on ordinary people ,, same old same old??‍♂️

[Ghost of Clough]

13 hours ago, Tyler Durden said:

Have they taken Chelsea off him yet.

Would be one small positive out of all of this is they then go into administration or get demoted to League 1

I'm thinking more along the lines of Bournemouth... potentially 1 less relegation spot to worry about ?

[Day]

32 minutes ago, David said:

If the majority say yes on the above, a topic will be opened by a moderator. Until then, can I ask you to respect the rules currently in place. 

 

3 minutes ago, Archied said:

From the little I pick up his main excuse is areas of Ukraine that are populated with Russians who feel/ claim they are treated very badly,of course the nato issue is large in this too , the break up of the ussr was always going to be a cluster duck powder keg at some point ,the real problem comes when sabre rattling from both east and west coupled with MONEY and power struggles at the top dumps on ordinary people ,, same old same old??‍♂️

Can you see why the moderators are frustrated with moderating these kind of topics? 

A simple request to respect the current rules in place until the moderators have had a chance to approve a topic completely ignored in less than half hour.

[WhiteHorseRam]

45 minutes ago, David said:

I suspect the same small number of members will move from the Covid topic into the Russia/Ukraine topic.

From what I saw the Politics Thread could get toxic because people were completely entrenched in their views on BREXIT - I don't honestly think anyone who took part changed their view. Same with the COVID Thread.

With this subject, I think there will be less unpleasantness as I hope no one is going to come on here and support was has happened.

[Archied]

18 minutes ago, David said:

 

Can you see why the moderators are frustrated with moderating these kind of topics? 

A simple request to respect the current rules in place until the moderators have had a chance to approve a topic completely ignored in less than half hour.

Apologies, I’ve not read your post properly, took it as you meant ok with the topic as long as people didn’t get abusive 

[Stive Pesley]

5 minutes ago, WhiteHorseRam said:

From what I saw the Politics Thread could get toxic because people were completely entrenched in their views on BREXIT - I don't honestly think anyone who took part changed their view. Same with the COVID Thread.

With this subject, I think there will be less unpleasantness as I hope no one is going to come on here and support was has happened.

If the topic gets approved, then I hope so too. And I'm happy to abide by the rules, as I have no axe top grind on the matter. I just want to learn and understand WTF is going on

Sadly - having looked at a Facebook thread on the DET feed, I was disappointed to see that there was no shortage of trolls going full on edgelord about it all

On that basis I'd say strict rules on the topic (if approved) are more than justified

[TuffLuff]

Got to admit I did have a poke around yesterday to see what might happen and to see if anyone knew more info about what’s happening.

As the day went on though I did become a little glad that threads were being locked. I fully get that we all want to discuss such an important topic, but the problem with the politics, covid and even the administration threads is people being all too willing to post disinformation. Or at the very least unverified info without putting a ‘disclaimer’ on, this is where a lot of bickering starts in my opinion. It’s either that or a lot of times it can be misinterpretation of an argument. 

Sometimes that unverified info is just an accident, a bit of gossip, but then sometimes it can be part of an agenda which I think ends up being a dangerous and unhelpful on a football forum.

Essentially, Im all up for a discussion but because it’s a sensitive topic can we be sure that we use verified source material about what’s going on and not just opinion pieces by non experts.

[Boycie]

4 hours ago, Archied said:

Apologies, I’ve not read your post properly, took it as you meant ok with the topic as long as people didn’t get abusive 

That’s half the problem with these sort of topics.  People have set views and set opinions of others views and don’t bother actually reading posts properly before diving in with their own set views.

 

Edited February 25, 2022 by Boycie

[Leeds Ram]

2 hours ago, Archied said:

From the little I pick up his main excuse is areas of Ukraine that are populated with Russians who feel/ claim they are treated very badly,of course the nato issue is large in this too , the break up of the ussr was always going to be a cluster duck powder keg at some point ,the real problem comes when sabre rattling from both east and west coupled with MONEY and power struggles at the top dumps on ordinary people ,, same old same old??‍♂️

There are ethnic and language links to Ukraine and Russia (but Ukraine and Ukrainians are not Russia or Russians).  Russia has used the excuse of poor treatment of 'Russians' to intervene in other areas in the past. I believe they used the same excuse for Georgia in 2008 (where even now they occupy a part of Georgia and the ECHR have highlighted just last year their brutality in the occupation) intervened in Syria to fight Islamic extremists when 90% of their bombing was aimed at non-extremist opposition and used it for the Crimea. Putin is claiming 'genocide' is taking place despite 0 international organisations recognising this claim and that they're going to de-nazify Ukraine despite the President of Ukraine being Jewish... 

The NATO excuse has 2 big issues for me. First, Ukraine is a sovereign nation. It's not up to Russia to decide what organisations Ukraine can or cannot join. In reality, if either Ukraine had been allowed to join NATO in 2006 or had not given up its nuclear weapons arsenal in 1994 this likely would not have happened. Second, NATO was envisioned and created as a defensive alliance not an offensive one. The idea that Ukraine, Poland, Latvia etc. pose a security threat is with no offence quite laughable. None of these countries have the military, economic, or technological power to pose any threat to Russia's security. It's simply used as a pretext to undermine other sovereign nations. 

My final point would be similar to the one made in the article below written by a good friend of a senior member of the Brookings institute. Putin is not mad unfortunately but has foreign policy aims that are expansionist and an anathema to the post cold war international order. He's using multiple pretexts to take back land he believes is Russian, multiple times in speeches he has referenced along with his foreign minister (who takes his line from Putin) that Ukraine is a non-country. He  will engineer this with similar countries in the future if he's not stopped now and made to pay a significant price for this action. It's unfortunately got nothing to do with a fear of NATO and everything to do with the reapplication of Russian power on sovereign countries Putin does not recognise. 

 

https://wisdomofcrowds.live/negotiating-with-madmen/?fbclid=IwAR1g8tBbbLW8-zzLRQbL2sfHciT--7AoOF3SSedH1Wwyl_i_1Uv1ut7jIws

Edited February 25, 2022 by Leeds Ram

[1of4]

Us threatening to freeze the bank accounts of a few rich Russians isn't going to stop Russian tanks rolling into Kyiv and murdering innocent civilians.

As the west ignore the pleas for military help from Ukraine. It's looking like many ordinary Ukrainians are preparing to fight to the death, to protect their country and more importantly their freedom.

[TigerTedd]

42 minutes ago, 1of4 said:

Us threatening to freeze the bank accounts of a few rich Russians isn't going to stop Russian tanks rolling into Kyiv and murdering innocent civilians.

As the west ignore the pleas for military help from Ukraine. It's looking like many ordinary Ukrainians are preparing to fight to the death, to protect their country and more importantly their freedom.

It’s so weird / depressing. The average Russian doesn’t care whether Russia gets an extra few miles of territory. The average Ukrainian doesn’t care (other than the fact that they’re the ones being invaded). We don’t really care about it over here in Britain, or America or Australia or anywhere else.

I don’t really get what the issue is in eastern Ukraine, and I’m sure it’s probably just a pretext for some other insecurity that vlad has, and I’m sure there are some people who care greatly about it. But no more so than people in Northern Ireland, or Catalonia, or a bunch of other disputed areas of the world where people grumble about wanting to be recognised as an independent state.

So why does anyone suddenly care about eastern Ukraine? I honestly couldn’t care less about it, so why is it suddenly ruining my day?

most average plebs (ie not the top 2%) just care about having food in their bellies and a roof over their heads. What Ukraine and Russia get up to in the privacy of their own part of Europe is there business. But it’s always all those ordinary plebs, you me and everyone else, that ends uk paying some sort of price.

christ, putin’s talking about consequences the likes of which the world has never seen if the west intervenes. Are we seriously talking about a world where our children have to live under the threat of a mushroom cloud?

the world sucks right now. 

And this why threads like this are important, because it allows me to ask questions like this, in the hope that someone more sensible than I might answer them with something reassuring.