The Administration Thread

[G STAR RAM]

3 minutes ago, Crewton said:

It's shown under Loan Share Account iirc (someone like GoC might confirm this?) 

I assume you are referring to the Share Premium Account. That is not a loan.

[ariotofmyown]

14 minutes ago, 24Charlie said:

Any who says he shouldn’t have chased the dream and then was bouncing all the way to Wembley with Frank is a hypocrite.

Any who were aware of the dire financial state of the club at the time, then enjoyed bouncing all the way to Wembley with Frank, but are now slagging of Mel for wreckless spending, are hypocrites.

We should have listened to the Snake Rowett at the time.

Perhaps Rowett was also told a bunch of lies when he joined? Then after one season, was then told there was no money and he'd have to sell everyone? The real Snake remained at Pride Park, ready to cause more carnage.

[Taribo]

9 minutes ago, ariotofmyown said:

 

We should have listened to the Snake Rowett at the time.

Perhaps Rowett was also told a bunch of lies when he joined? Then after one season, was then told there was no money and he'd have to sell everyone? The real Snake remained at Pride Park, ready to cause more carnage.

I’d absolutely not thought of it like this, good point 

[PistoldPete]

9 hours ago, Brailsford Ram said:

It wasn't his boyhood club. When he was a boy he had no interest whatsoever in football or Derby County. He went to the same school as me and he was notorious for his aversion to sport and physical education. The PE teachers regarded their biggest challenge of every week as getting Morris into the gym or onto the sports field. He hated it and was only interested in cars. His first attendance at a Derby County game was post Millennium when he went with a business associate to Pride Park. He was one of the League of Gentlemen under Peter Gadsby but you may remember we never heard a word from him during that time; we heard from all of the others but not from Morris who was almost anonymous. There was a good reason for that; the rest of them had a lifelong interest in sport, football and Derby County. They could hold their own speaking about the game but Morris could not.

The next time we heard about him was when he took the club over after his windfall from his investment in the King Corporation, generated by the success of Candy Crush. Then he pronounced himself as a supporter since 1969 when he attended the famous record BBG attendance against Spurs when we won 5-0. Those of us who remembered the reality fell about laughing at the re-invention of himself but we're not laughing now. He pretended to know all about football when really he knew nothing. That was a major part of his downfall. His ego was so big that in the football world he thought he could bluster his way through. He loved the ego trip of associating with Lampard, Harry Redknapp and Rooney. That's why he continued spending recklessly when he knew the finances were out of control. But one day a couple or so years ago it dawned on him that the game was up and the financial folly couldn't continue. That's when he started looking for buyers for the club but nobody credible would touch him and he suddenly went silent in communicating with the fans. The game was up.

He must have loved it when the fans sang 'He's one of our own.' That polished his massive ego but he never was one of us. One of our own could never have damaged Derby County in the way he has because we care too much.

Thanks Brailsford . A myth about Morris is broken then. Maybe if we had all known this from the start we woudln't have been so trusting of him. He isn't quite the superfan he is made out to be, which might explain how he coud ever have put us into admin.  

[Crewton]

12 minutes ago, G STAR RAM said:

I assume you are referring to the Share Premium Account. That is not a loan.

Whatever it's called, that's where Mel's loans are recorded and that's what was being referred to when the threat of him demanding 35p/£ for them a couple of weeks ago was raised in the media. Whilst we don't have access to the paperwork that dictates how they're treated, it's fairly certain imo that they're the classic "loans not required to be repaid by a fixed date". Whether they equal the amount of money he actually put in is another question. 

[G STAR RAM]

4 minutes ago, Crewton said:

Whatever it's called, that's where Mel's loans are recorded and that's what was being referred to when the threat of him demanding 35p/£ for them a couple of weeks ago was raised in the media. Whilst we don't have access to the paperwork that dictates how they're treated, it's fairly certain imo that they're the classic "loans not required to be repaid by a fixed date". Whether they equal the amount of money he actually put in is another question. 

Share premium is the amount paid above par value, ie if you pay £10 to buy a £1 ordinary share, then in the balance sheet £1 is shown as called up share capital and the other £9 is shown as share premium.

The £9 is not a loan and is not repayable.

The £153m share premium is not a loan from MM and is not repaysble by DCFC.

Where the loans have arisen is in the company that MM used to buy the shares, one of the Gellaw companies from memory. 

So MM loans Gellaw £150m and Gellaw use it to buy the shares.

MM is owed money from Gellaw not DCFC.

 

[Half Fan Half Biscuit]

9 minutes ago, Crewton said:

Whatever it's called, that's where Mel's loans are recorded and that's what was being referred to when the threat of him demanding 35p/£ for them a couple of weeks ago was raised in the media. Whilst we don't have access to the paperwork that dictates how they're treated, it's fairly certain imo that they're the classic "loans not required to be repaid by a fixed date". Whether they equal the amount of money he actually put in is another question. 

Share premium account has nothing to do with being a creditor and no one could demand even 1p in the £ to be repaid. It's a non distributable reserve.

[Crewton]

Thanks both for the more technical explanations. I had read that private companies could go through a process to make an SPA distributable and wondered if MM had somehow been able to wangle that change in status. 

It does still leave the question though about what the reporting of Mel's "threat" alluded to. Perhaps there was no foundation to it, or are there actually loans from MM listed elsewhere in the SoA? 

[TooFarInToTurnRed]

17 hours ago, The Baron said:

Hi,

That’s when you would report the gain to the tax authorities, it’s reported in the accounts in the year in which the gain is reported under the accruals principle.

Would it only needs to be accrued for in the period it becomes due not the period the liability results from?

Either way have the 2018/19 accounts been published as I cannot find them to see if it was. 

[Ram-Alf]

8 minutes ago, PistoldPete said:

Thanks Brailsford . A myth about Morris is broken then. Maybe if we had all known this from the start we woudln't have been so trusting of him. He isn't quite the superfan he is made out to be, which might explain how he coud ever have put us into admin.  

Football fans and football owners are a strange breed, Fans care not a jot where the money is coming from Newcastle a great example, As long as their club are buying players, As long as they see a winning team, Then who gives a shyte, Owners for the life of me...why buy a football club, Newcastle(Saudi Arabia)is all about sport washing, Chelsea for £4.25 billion is just crazy, Burnley are having to pay most of one loan back to MSD of almost £65 million.

The breakfast club that posters were invited too were fed some what we now know as total BS, But I guess at the time some thought they were very privileged or even honoured to get the invite, I was not posting on this board at the time, Other boards posters were apoplectic as their invite must have been lost in the post.

I believe one or 2 of the invitees were very sceptical of his words, But the man who holds court in his own domain gets to call the shots, I was never suspicious of MM why should I be, He's a multi millionaire that's on record as saying he's been a DCFC fan for decades, Now Brailsford Ram has told us some home truths about this charlatan, Do I feel conned...no, Am I a little pi$$ed off...no, It's more of a roll back eyes ?and a...here we go again...why us?, The deeper posters dug the murkier it got, Journalists galore were writing about us, Some were big fibs, Some were close to the truth, The EFL were sent a get out of jail free card by MM, DCFC were going to pay for their part in the Sky TV deal, 2 clubs in Boro and Wycombe felt they were shat upon by DCFC, Where was the EFL when the brown stuff  hit the fan, Hiding under a table at the Stadium of Shyte, But eventually the house of cards all fell down because of one man who thought he had a magic want and wanted to be loved.

We now have a new owner in CK, A local business man has purchased Pride Park, This venture I like as the Stadium ATM will be in local ownership, As for the team/club, I'm looking forward to next season, Saturday 3pm kick offs, Very little exposure on Sky TV, Travelling to the back and beyond for some away games...all to watch a bag of wind being kicked about.

Yes football fans are a strange breed ? 

 

[G STAR RAM]

12 minutes ago, TooFarInToTurnRed said:

Would it only needs to be accrued for in the period it becomes due not the period the liability results from?

Either way have the 2018/19 accounts been published as I cannot find them to see if it was. 

No, in the period when the transaction took place.

I can with 99.99% confidence say there was no tax liability for DCFC arising from the sale of the ground.

Mainly because of the accumulated losses we had brought forward and also, without looking at group structure, because the transaction was between members of a tax group. (Happy to be corrected on latter point if incorrect, just cant be bothered to look up the information right now).

[G STAR RAM]

5 minutes ago, Unlucky Alf said:

Football fans and football owners are a strange breed, Fans care not a jot where the money is coming from Newcastle a great example, As long as their club are buying players, As long as they see a winning team, Then who gives a shyte, Owners for the life of me...why buy a football club, Newcastle(Saudi Arabia)is all about sport washing, Chelsea for £4.25 billion is just crazy, Burnley are having to pay most of one loan back to MSD of almost £65 million.

The breakfast club that posters were invited too were fed some what we now know as total BS, But I guess at the time some thought they were very privileged or even honoured to get the invite, I was not posting on this board at the time, Other boards posters were apoplectic as their invite must have been lost in the post.

I believe one or 2 of the invitees were very sceptical of his words, But the man who holds court in his own domain gets to call the shots, I was never suspicious of MM why should I be, He's a multi millionaire that's on record as saying he's been a DCFC fan for decades, Now Brailsford Ram has told us some home truths about this charlatan, Do I feel conned...no, Am I a little pi$$ed off...no, It's more of a roll back eyes ?and a...here we go again...why us?, The deeper posters dug the murkier it got, Journalists galore were writing about us, Some were big fibs, Some were close to the truth, The EFL were sent a get out of jail free card by MM, DCFC were going to pay for their part in the Sky TV deal, 2 clubs in Boro and Wycombe felt they were shat upon by DCFC, Where was the EFL when the brown stuff  hit the fan, Hiding under a table at the Stadium of Shyte, But eventually the house of cards all fell down because of one man who thought he had a magic want and wanted to be loved.

We now have a new owner in CK, A local business man has purchased Pride Park, This venture I like as the Stadium ATM will be in local ownership, As for the team/club, I'm looking forward to next season, Saturday 3pm kick offs, Very little exposure on Sky TV, Travelling to the back and beyond for some away games...all to watch a bag of wind being kicked about.

Yes football fans are a strange breed ? 

 

I was one of the attendees of said Breakfast Club and it was difficult not to be impressed with the vision that MM had for the club.

In hindsight there were very worrying traits of an egotistical man.

From memory there were 2 attendees that did challenge his style of running of the club.

[Ram-Alf]

10 hours ago, RoyMac5 said:

 

PMSL...the older I get the more cynical I become concerning football, Who won it last year, Or is this a case of some turd giving a turd a bit of exposure...FFS Parry your a stain on the honest football supporter...another reason to dislike you even more.

Our Wayne found out while driving home.

[LeedsCityRam]

1 hour ago, 24Charlie said:

Fair comments. Forum’s allow people to vent. He’s gone from Uncle Mel to bad smell but the reality is he was probably telling the truth when he said he couldn’t afford to subsidise the club anymore. After losing the play off final and the cupboard being bare the only option was to sell but Gibson, with the help of Maguire saying “looking here”, insisting the EFL re visit the amortisation policy scared off the Saudi’s 

It dragged on so long and Mel was losing so much, especially with no income and no loan, that he was left with no option but to act in his own interests at that point and put us into admin.

In his position many of us would have done the same thing and many of us would have even done it sooner.

How long would any of us go on chucking good money after bad. Would we be expected to do it indefinitely?

Any who says he shouldn’t have chased the dream and then was bouncing all the way to Wembley with Frank is a hypocrite.

Who’d be a football club owner.

 

This reads like Morris was a victim of circumstance & acted like a 'reasonable person' thereafter. I would argue that is a very generous interpretation.

Reality is Morris knew towards the end ot 2017/18 that we'd overspent as a club. He publicly told Rowett we would be reining it in & relying more on Academy graduates and that was part of Rowett's rationale for jumping ship to Stoke. 

Had Morris kept to this strategy, we'd have been fine. What he then did though was to bet the house on one last attempt at promotion...got blinded by a celebrity appointment (Lampard) & spent money every bit as frivolous as his first 2 years. It was this season that provoked the ire of Gibson & interest of onlookers who couldn't reconcile his earlier statements with the approach thereafter.

Once we lost to Villa & he decided to sell having lost his gamble, he had a responsibility to manage the club prudently. Instead he doubled down with our biggest ever signing (Bielik) & a massive PR stunt (Rooney). Gibson served notice of intent to sue us May 2019 but Morris did not deal with this until 3 months ago (and even then there are suggestions he's just lumped it onto the price of PP). He said he would fund us until we were sold but cut his losses by dumping us into administration & left us to the mercy of rival clubs & a vengeful EFL. 

He also had a bid last summer from the Binnies (reported in the Athletic) which seemingly he rejected in favour of administration & a certain relegation. That sound like someone who had no option but to do what he did?

To your point about fans supporting us at Wembley and then turning on Morris, how would you expect the average fan to know the situation at the club when Morris was so secretive about the real picture & his true intentions?

Edited May 28, 2022 by LeedsCityRam

[Brammie Steve]

32 minutes ago, G STAR RAM said:

I was one of the attendees of said Breakfast Club and it was difficult not to be impressed with the vision that MM had for the club.

In hindsight there were very worrying traits of an egotistical man.

From memory there were 2 attendees that did challenge his style of running of the club.

No sausages though!?

Edited May 28, 2022 by Brammie Steve

[JPRamFan]

11 hours ago, RoyMac5 said:

 

Parry said in his speech after accepting such a prestgious and deserving award, " I just want to thank my permed mate Gibson for giving me the confidence to retrospectively punish a club we gave the go ahead to proceed in how they accounted for their stadium sale and amortisation policy. We began a witch hunt that started in Jan 2020, and we brought in the finest experts. The guy who compared Morecambes stadium to Pride Park, the expert had true experience in his area. But my personal favourite was mister Pope, even more loved than the actual Pope in EFL HG about lecturing us about his academic interpretation of FRS102. 

When the first verdict went against us, we went again, put a lot of resources into getting a gulity verdict, all the while when clubs like Macclesfield went bust. We eventually thanks to a panel of Lawyers with no accounting experience, got them to adjust their accounts accordingly. We penalised them, and what followed was admin, points deductions, transfer embargoes, my permed mates cheque from Mel, while holding the club to Ransom, and the inevitable relegation to League 1. It was glorious and could not have done it without Gibson".

[Ghost of Clough]

18 minutes ago, LeedsCityRam said:

Had Morris kept to this strategy, we'd have been fine. What he then did though was to bet the house on one last attempt at promotion...got blinded by a celebrity appointment (Lampard) & spent money every bit as frivolous as his first 2 years. It was this season that provoked the ire of Gibson & interest of onlookers who couldn't reconcile his earlier statements with the approach thereafter.

It was the £80m stadium sale which raised eyebrows. The accounts for 17/18 were released in early April, Gibson 'forcibly questioned' the sale in privateduring April then started with his public threats in May, a couple of days before we played Villa.

If it wasn't for the stadium sale, Gibson wouldn't have questioned anything, and the EFL wouldn't have bothered looking into the accounts/amortisation at all.

[CBRammette]

26 minutes ago, LeedsCityRam said:

This reads like Morris was a victim of circumstance & acted like a 'reasonable person' thereafter. I would argue that is a very generous interpretation.

Reality is Morris knew towards the end ot 2017/18 that we'd overspent as a club. He publicly told Rowett we would be reining it in & relying more on Academy graduates and that was part of Rowett's rationale for jumping ship to Stoke. 

Had Morris kept to this strategy, we'd have been fine. What he then did though was to bet the house on one last attempt at promotion...got blinded by a celebrity appointment (Lampard) & spent money every bit as frivolous as his first 2 years. It was this season that provoked the ire of Gibson & interest of onlookers who couldn't reconcile his earlier statements with the approach thereafter.

Once we lost to Villa & he decided to sell having lost his gamble, he had a responsibility to manage the club prudently. Instead he doubled down with our biggest ever signing (Bielik) & a massive PR stunt (Rooney). Gibson served notice of intent to sue us May 2019 but Morris did not deal with this until 3 months ago (and even then there are suggestions he's just lumped it onto the price of PP). He said he would fund us until we were sold but cut his losses by dumping us into administration & left us to the mercy of rival clubs & a vengeful EFL. 

He also had a bid last summer from the Binnies (reported in the Athletic) which seemingly he rejected in favour of administration & a certain relegation. That sound like someone who had no option but to do what he did?

To your point about fans supporting us at Wembley and then turning on Morris, how would you expect the average fan to know the situation at the club when Morris was so secretive about the real picture & his true intentions?

Exactly this! All decisions were his. He could have dragged us back at any point but he keep gambling. Supporters were hoodwinked I think mainly by the boyhood fan persona he created. Even throughout administration Ive been thinking surely a Derby fan wouldnt put us through this, wouldnt let us liquidate, etc. Throughout I have been reading with more interest than usual (ie any) the many cases reported in accountancy/tax tech updates (zzz yes i know) against directors etc regarding unpaid taxes; insolvencies, etc. Posters have said many times that HMRC will strike a deal due to our community status but perhaps they have their eye on another prize. Would be very much the Derby way to finally being moving on quietly with a new owner to then have a case against MM. 

[FindernRam]

Why Tuesday? Kirchner has a car running in the Indy 500 on Sunday, maybe he wants to be there and in Derby for the big sign off

(Apologies if someone answered this already, I'm following my practice of on clicking on every 5th page!)

[CBRammette]

Just now, FindernRam said:

Why Tuesday? Kirchner has a car running in the Indy 500 on Sunday, maybe he wants to be there and in Derby for the big sign off

(Apologies if someone answered this already, I'm following my practice of on clicking on every 5th page!)

Dunno but as you say re Indy500 - also big bank holiday in US monday