Derby finally accept 21 point deduction.

[Rev]

26 minutes ago, EtoileSportiveDeDerby said:

Cant be thats over 400m a year. Even 8m is on the high side at 96m a year.

I was playing Chinese Whispers, taking an unrealistic amount then 10x it.

If that's an allowable phrase these days?

 

[CornwallRam]

2 hours ago, duncanjwitham said:

I’ve been mentally calling him Professor Plum since the first DC (for various reasons…). I have to double check every post when I mention his name in case I’ve written the wrong one.

It could be worse, you could be calling him Duncan with Jam ?

[kevinhectoring]

3 hours ago, i-Ram said:

Look at the losses under No. 22 of the attached https://www.efl.com/contentassets/065e21d5596b42e7a882322d3a203509/efl-v-dcfc-agreed-decision-approved-for-publication-15-november-2021.pdf

The policy change will not have effected the amount of the losses, just the timing. All our deferring of writing down the values of Johnson, Butterfield, Blackman, etc., would have hit the 2018/19 accounts hard. Long before EFL charged Derby in Jan 2020 and COVID hit us all in Mar 2020.

what's this in the Agreed Decision about:

"iv) Not claim any “exceptional items” in the Club’s P&S Calculation, without the EFL’s consent in advance. "

Is this to rule out getting benefit from MM waiving loans. Didn't Forest do this? Isn't any other club allowed to? 

 

[PistoldPete]

3 hours ago, AndyinLiverpool said:

The account weren't submitted, were they?

That’s because they challenged the earlier accounts. Four years after the amortisation policy was noted . 

[Gee SCREAMER !!]

10 minutes ago, kevinhectoring said:

what's this in the Agreed Decision about:

"iv) Not claim any “exceptional items” in the Club’s P&S Calculation, without the EFL’s consent in advance. "

Is this to rule out getting benefit from MM waiving loans. Didn't Forest do this? Isn't any other club allowed to? 

 

Yes they had around 40 million quid of 'loans' in actual fact debt and money spent wiped on takeover.  They would have been up the crapper if not.  Surprise, everyone bends the rules.  Another clubs owner converts any debt to shares to the tune of 13 million a year' I've overspent by 13 million so I'll sell myself shares at no cost and buy my own debt' . One wonders how many shares he can have and why there not worth tuppence each. Others buy 12 million pound players to be paid in full in 3 years thereby hedging there bets and effectively amortising that players total fee in year  3 of the contract, which doesn't sound very straight line.

 

[PistoldPete]

3 hours ago, SBW said:

That is just one of the elements.  What about not paying HMRC. Not paying wages, not pay clubs owed transfer fees, not submitting accounts, Morris admitting any resubmitted accounts would breach FFP?

 

C'mon mate, it's poo.  We all know it is.  It's going to take some healing, but we aren't being unfairly punished.  We pushed hard for promotion, too hard and as a result the club acted in very bad faith.  I'd say the accepting on penalties shows the Admin team recognised we also breached rules.

 

 

But none of that is acting in bad faith. If we or rather Pearce (and our auditors) at most made an honest mistake on the amortisation issue then any consequent breaches of ffp rules are also made due to the same honest mistake. 
 

I think not paying people because you don’t have the money or thought someone else had agreed to pay is also not acting in bad faith.

For example I would certainly say QPR spending what they liked to get promoted is acting in bad faith because they must have known they were breaking the rules it was a wilful act.

[Gee SCREAMER !!]

1 minute ago, PistoldPete said:

But none of that is acting in bad faith. If we or rather Pearce (and our auditors) at most made an honest mistake on the amortisation issue then any consequent breaches of ffp rules are also made due to the same honest mistake. 
 

I think not paying people because you don’t have the money or thought someone else had agreed to pay is also not acting in bad faith.

For example I would certainly say QPR spending what they liked to get promoted is acting in bad faith because they must have known they were breaking the rules it was a wilful act.

They wound up having to pay a whole 7% of there fine on relegation.  I feel for them.

[PistoldPete]

2 hours ago, San Fran Van Rams said:

I haven't read the latest in this thread as frankly I don't have the time or inclination. The whole process has been an absolute farce - a witch hunt against an owner; a wider agenda in an attempt to force change up the pyramid; and a corrupt system which bows to those who shout the loudest.

The biggest issue in those whole debacle is that there is an assumption that the LAP made the correct decision about our amortization policy's non-compliance with FRS102. My understanding is that even though the original DC (which included the relevant experts) found the policy to be in compliance (apart from poor disclosure), the LAP then decided to uphold the original particulars even though the LAP had no accounting expertise on it. 

The second biggest issue is that EFL have used the club's financial plight to have it agree to the punishment. The EFL knew full well that we were unable to let the sanctions/appeals decision slip given the existing funding and limited cashflow and the inability to sell the club without that decision agreed upon. The EFL forced us to agree to the decision or face liquidation. To me, this is forcing a false confession and is completely unjust and unfair. 

The third biggest issue is that we have been repeatedly punished for the same perceived mis-demeanor which I'm still yet to see full evidence that we're guilt of - non-compliance with FRS 102. Putting the compliance matter to one side, we've been punished through a strict transfer embargo, an inability to utilize a league wide loan and now a points deduction. The overall points deduction is also a repeated sanction for the same alleged crime given we would have changed our approach and our decisions if we were to know we couldn't use it. (To note, indirectly we've also been punished with administration as the whole EFL debacle forced buyers to pull out a potential acquisition that would have prevented this from happening).

Finally, the fourth biggest issue is that throughout this whole process, Derby's name has been dragged through the mud. Whether its from the EFLs shockingly worded statements, leaks to the national press, or miss/over simplified reporting by the press, Derby County is now a dirty word amongst many a fan - I do not care that we are not liked. I care that we are not liked because of false accusations and an agenda from our governing body which is meant to protect our club and the game we love.

As I've said before, I do not admonish MM of any responsibility. His financial mis-management of Derby is shocking and he should be condemned as one of, if not the, worst owners in our history and the fact he decided to walked away from the steaming pile of poo he created says a lot about the man.

The EFL, however, has done nothing but further punish and cripple the club and is as worthy of as much criticism as our esteemed previous owner. It is an unfit and unjust governance body that needs dismantling and building from the floor up again. 

Sir you obviously make up for the lack of quantity of your posts with the sheer quality of this one .Absolutely spot on.

[S8TY]

Once upon a time not that long ago football was about the players who pulled on the great jersey of a fans beloved team 

it was about  growing up watching your heroes on the pitch and trying to emulate them in your own football matches 

football is lost !!!

it’s about amortisation and ffp and players leaving for free with greedy agents pocketing money that never returns to the game and football clubs losing money to greed

For the last 18 months or so the headlines have not been about a great goal or a terrific signing it’s about finance and ffp and some things we never used to know anything about like amortisation blah blah blah !! because we just love the game and are fans this whole charade is both upsetting and has probably put us back years 

sick to death with how the EFL have treated us and how a so called fan has dragged us through the mire and made us a laughing stock ...someone we trusted 

 ....and I’ve had enough 

THE END 

 

 

[San Fran Van Rams]

2 hours ago, Gee SCREAMER !! said:

Yes they had around 40 million quid of 'loans' in actual fact debt and money spent wiped on takeover.  They would have been up the crapper if not.  Surprise, everyone bends the rules.  Another clubs owner converts any debt to shares to the tune of 13 million a year' I've overspent by 13 million so I'll sell myself shares at no cost and buy my own debt' . One wonders how many shares he can have and why there not worth tuppence each. Others buy 12 million pound players to be paid in full in 3 years thereby hedging there bets and effectively amortising that players total fee in year  3 of the contract, which doesn't sound very straight line.

 

I half feel like combing through each club in the championship, picking out examples like you've called out where there rules have been bent and presenting it to the EFL repeatedly until they notice. Then threaten legal action until the EFL deducts  each club 21 points....

... Sorry, I've gone too far. Such action would obviously be far too petty and I realize we're all trying our best to exit a financially rigged league.... Oh wait

[Sparkle]

So am I correct in believing that we haven’t actually broken any rules and been charged ?

[GB SPORTS]

14 hours ago, Crewton said:

I'm ho ding my own prot st by boycotting th    tt rs that  orm th ir nam   or th  r st o  th  s ason.

That's  *xc****nt. 

Edited November 17, 2021 by angieram
Remove swearing

[G STAR RAM]

11 hours ago, kevinhectoring said:

That’s not the sample that shows whether the straight line basis makes sense. The sample you should ask for is how many players are above the straight line, and by how much. And how many are below. If it largely balances out, then that’s justification for the policy. 

Not at all, there will be vqariables that need to be taken into account.

Position

Age

Contract length 

Just saying that some players are above the line and some below it is poor justification for using the method.

[G STAR RAM]

9 hours ago, Red Ram said:

According to Kieran Maquire, amortisation isn't mean to reflect residual value so I'm not sure it would be all that relevant.

But ultimately we were not giving the intangibles a residual value, they were being amortised to zero and it appears this is where the confusion arose.

Although you can't give in an intangible a residual value, that does not stop you from recording its fair value at the end of each accounting period, which is what we were doing.

Edited November 17, 2021 by G STAR RAM

[Oldben]

A cautionary tale, noting lessons learned.

Leeds Relegated to League One

Leeds were docked ten points for going into voluntary administration at the end of the 2006/07 season. 

The club owed HMRC £6m and would have gone into liquidation if not for administration.

They lost 15 points before their first League One season because they didn't pay enough of their creditors.

In League One for three years.

Leeds were promoted to the Championship in 2009/10 thanks to Jermaine Beckford's 25 league goals.

Manchester United were beaten by Leeds in the 

2009/10 FA Cup third round.

Leeds United were promoted to the Premier League in 2019/20 after 25 managers since their relegation to League One.

Take Homes

* to win league one you need a quality team with a top scoring striker, they must be able to score circa 20 goals in a season

* it's tough in League One, you need an astute manager

* a club in difficulty like Derby, needs to say we will never back down. If Leeds can do it, so can Derby

* Derby require a very astute and tactical manager who knows how to get promoted

For any players that Derby don't wish to lose, there needs to be contracts in writing guaranteeing that the club will pay whatever salary is required to keep those players next season. That sort of contract doesn't kick on until the transfer embargo lifts, but I'd it doesn't happen then Derby could lose a lot of money from players who are near the end of their contracts and from any players with a release clause if the club is relegated.

[PistoldPete]

4 hours ago, Sparkle said:

So am I correct in believing that we haven’t actually broken any rules and been charged ?

No. Half right. We haven't broken any rules but we have been charged.

[Gaspode]

2 minutes ago, PistoldPete said:

No. Half right. We haven't broken any rules but we have been charged.

That's actually the bit that is confusing me - it appears thast we weren't charged (for the reported breaches based on the re-done accounts), but have been punished anyway....almost like some sort of plea bargain. I guess that's why the EFL make a noise about "the principles of the Regulations" rather than follwoing due process - gives them the wriggle room to pretty much do whatever they please....

[Jubbs]

4 hours ago, Sparkle said:

So am I correct in believing that we haven’t actually broken any rules and been charged ?

No. We have exceeded the limits of FFP, so we have broke the rules.

[Curtains]

Just now, Jubbs said:

No. We have exceeded the limits of FFP, so we have broke the rules.

Stupid rules 

[richinspain]

52 minutes ago, Oldben said:

A cautionary tale, noting lessons learned.

Leeds Relegated to League One

Leeds were docked ten points for going into voluntary administration at the end of the 2006/07 season. 

The club owed HMRC £6m and would have gone into liquidation if not for administration.

They lost 15 points before their first League One season because they didn't pay enough of their creditors.

In League One for three years.

Leeds were promoted to the Championship in 2009/10 thanks to Jermaine Beckford's 25 league goals.

Manchester United were beaten by Leeds in the 

2009/10 FA Cup third round.

Leeds United were promoted to the Premier League in 2019/20 after 25 managers since their relegation to League One.

Take Homes

* to win league one you need a quality team with a top scoring striker, they must be able to score circa 20 goals in a season

* it's tough in League One, you need an astute manager

* a club in difficulty like Derby, needs to say we will never back down. If Leeds can do it, so can Derby

* Derby require a very astute and tactical manager who knows how to get promoted

For any players that Derby don't wish to lose, there needs to be contracts in writing guaranteeing that the club will pay whatever salary is required to keep those players next season. That sort of contract doesn't kick on until the transfer embargo lifts, but I'd it doesn't happen then Derby could lose a lot of money from players who are near the end of their contracts and from any players with a release clause if the club is relegated.

*we all ¥ hate Leeds.