v Salford City - Pre Season Friendly

[kash_a_ram_a_ding_dong]

36 minutes ago, Curtains said:

Because it’s being inferred by some that the others are useless and not trying .

Sibley is good in one type of system to which he has to be accommodated 

 

A winning one?

[Leeds Ram]

4 minutes ago, Jimbo Ram said:

I think a team so lacking in creativity and goals can’t afford not to play one of it’s most creative young players. I was hoping under Wazza’s new style and game plan we would be more offensive and play just the one holding midfielder….certainly hope that will happen when Bielik is back playing ?

It's difficult as we've got absolutely no protection in midfield without Shinnie but Shinnie and Bird together are a truly woeful combination tbh. I think we definitely need to maximise the talent we do have- maybe a 4-2-3-1 with Sibley in the hole and Shinnie and Morrison in central midfield. A big problem yesterday even in the first half was that whenever Salford did have the ball in the central midfield we looked unable to easily deal with it. 

[RoyMac5]

47 minutes ago, Leeds Ram said:

Do you think the squad is loaded with talent honestly? I don't think it's inherently disrespectful to say that we need to maximise our talent the best we can as we are short on people who can compete at a second division level. If we were shouting 'you're crap' in the street that'd be a different matter.  Last season our midfield didn't support the front line nor did it protect the backline very well and that needs to change. Sibley can be a key link man who for some reason doesn't seem to be in wayne's plans. 

Can be. We've a whole season to see how it works out.

[RoyMac5]

10 minutes ago, Leeds Ram said:

It's difficult as we've got absolutely no protection in midfield without Shinnie but Shinnie and Bird together are a truly woeful combination tbh. I think we definitely need to maximise the talent we do have- maybe a 4-2-3-1 with Sibley in the hole and Shinnie and Morrison in central midfield. A big problem yesterday even in the first half was that whenever Salford did have the ball in the central midfield we looked unable to easily deal with it. 

Although I did think Bird and Carroll worked well together, better than Shinnie and Bird for getting forward. 

[Ramarena]

24 minutes ago, Jimbo Ram said:

That jovial, positive Macca seems to be getting a tad tetchy….what’s up mate ? #welovethemacca

Not heard that one for ages….thank y for giving me the opportunity to use this:

[Leeds Ram]

14 minutes ago, RoyMac5 said:

Although I did think Bird and Carroll worked well together, better than Shinnie and Bird for getting forward. 

Bird and Carroll for me lacked defensive heft especially with a centre back pairing lacking pace if we do sign jagielka and stearman they'll need more protection. 

[RoyMac5]

1 minute ago, Leeds Ram said:

Bird and Carroll for me lacked defensive heft especially with a centre back pairing lacking pace if we do sign jagielka and stearman they'll need more protection. 

But at least we'll get forward. Without Bielik we have little choice, although I've always preferred 4-3-3 but not sure how we'd work that as we have no CBs in our 4. ?

[May Contain Nuts]

50 minutes ago, Leeds Ram said:

It's difficult as we've got absolutely no protection in midfield without Shinnie but Shinnie and Bird together are a truly woeful combination tbh.

I'm not even sure Shinnie provides protection tbh, no more than Bryson did, certainly not on the levels of Eustace and Bielik. There's a lot of chasing the opposition and the odd tackle but his defensive discipline and positioning/covering is pretty average so while the tackles look good and leave a lasting impression, how effective really is he the rest of the time?

That combined with how limiting he is to the team in transition (cannot play on the turn and spot supporting runs, let alone play the pass quickly enough) seems to mean we can't play him as a sole DM and someone partnered with him at DM performs below their own standards.

We think we'd miss Shinnie's 'bite' but when Eustace was here he didn't really have any bite, did he?

... and Eustace played the DM role on his own! He wasn't charging around the pitch putting in tackles, he wasn't covering every blade of grass and he wasn't expected to contribute to the team's attacking moves, he was part of a midfield that so often dictated the pace of the game along with with Hendrick, Hughes and Bryson.

 

 

Edited July 25, 2021 by Coconut

[Ghost of Clough]

22 hours ago, peakram said:

Maybe because he sits so deep. It would still be classed as progressive even if the passes didnt go pass the centre circle? No idea myself but he is quoted as being a deep lying midfielder, I dont think thats what we need at all, already have so many of them its depressing.

Do we? We have Bird and Shinnie as our only senior CMs for the next 3 months

[Chris_Martin]

4 hours ago, RoyMac5 said:

Hardly surprising with no CBs and one striker. Plus two injured midfielders.

actually to me it is quite surprising. We have had various CB's playing and various strikers playing in Wayne's time here. But it just doesn't seem to be working. All i can see is us getting worse and worse every game, there isn't a single player who Wayne has improved. When he was appointed manager i desperately wanted it to work out but unfortunately it just hasn't. We need someone who knows what they're doing as it's clear this season will be as much, if not more of a struggle than last year. 

[Rammy03]

1 hour ago, Jimbo Ram said:

I think a team so lacking in creativity and goals can’t afford not to play one of it’s most creative young players. I was hoping under Wazza’s new style and game plan we would be more offensive and play just the one holding midfielder….certainly hope that will happen when Bielik is back playing ?

I think he will. Shinnie isn't a holding midfielder, he is a box to box player. When he has played in that role, we have seen the best of him. He likes to win the ball and then drive forward. He doesn't have the passing range or physical dominance to be that holding midfielder, it just doesn't suit him.

[RoyMac5]

12 minutes ago, Chris_Martin said:

actually to me it is quite surprising. We have had various CB's playing and various strikers playing in Wayne's time here. But it just doesn't seem to be working.

Probably because most of the time only an assortment of any have been available, never a really continuous amount of many. But for you you think it's Rooney's fault that playing with injured CKR up front without Gregory, or CBs without Davies and Mengi and Wisdom or midfield without Bielik etc, he should be able to manage a stable team?

Edited July 25, 2021 by RoyMac5

[Jimbo Ram]

10 minutes ago, Rammy03 said:

I think he will. Shinnie isn't a holding midfielder, he is a box to box player. When he has played in that role, we have seen the best of him. He likes to win the ball and then drive forward. He doesn't have the passing range or physical dominance to be that holding midfielder, it just doesn't suit him.

Who will then until Bielik is back?

[Ravabeerbelly]

I’m not sure where this lack of creativity idea comes from in the games so far…

I agree there’s a lack of goals….Neither CKR or Baldock have been prolific at any time in their careers so to suddenly expect in their twilight years is unrealistic and unfair. They offer what they offer and others will need to chip in with their fair share. 

Yesterday was what it was. A pretty season against a very difficult opponent who were very much more focused on a scalp and a result than you’d expect in a pre season game….which is good for us and why higher leagues clubs play lower league clubs pre season!

It showed how difficult league 2 can be and I know it was scoffed at when I compared it to being almost a different sport but they are. No time on the ball. Big physical uncompromising men. Direct football aiming at getting the ball into the box from far different areas than what we’d be used to dealing with. They had a 5 man press when we tried to play out and they had big lumps waiting to head it when we had to play over that rather than round it or through it. It was exactly what you need to face pre season when up until now it had consisted of training games, shape work, largely unopposed situations and a game against a like minded and mirror image Man U.

Im not too upset by it. We created lots of chances. 1st half Aluku should have had 2 both coming from good football. Morrison could’ve done better with his header. Carrol was unlucky with a curling effort. 

Second half Bird found Hutchinson (twice) and Sibley (ultimately for the goal) in identical positions as 10s on the half turn, from line breaking passes and all three times resulted in low crosses into the box from overlapping full backs, that could’ve been goal chances…even for the goal, forget it was an own goal…Hutchinson and Esobele were close and one of them would’ve scored even if the ball had been slightly misplaced (nos in the box). Add to that, McDonald played a lovely ball down the sides for Baldock who could’ve scored or I think he may have tried to play across goal where we had a player at the far post for a tap in….again midfield players in the box…then we have the gaping open goal from Baldock following more good interplay and movement around the box.

Realistically they only looked like scoring twice and the pen was soft at best, whereas we could’ve easily scored 5/6 or even 7. Had we come away with a 4-1 win we’d all be jumping up and down about how we could be ok…..let alone if we’d scored more!!!

Im not stupid, clearly we need players and clearly the end result was a loss and championship games will be a different kettle of fish but I feel we’re getting carried away and that’s not good whether it be over positive or over negative. 

Finally I think Aluko is a wasted registration. He doesn’t offer anymore than some of the youngsters we have who can play that role (Esobele / Sibley / Hutchinson - maybe in that order). Carroll offers much the same as Bird. Bird is ours and come through our academy why bin him off for a 1 season pay day like Carroll? I’d see Watson as this type too so I’d happily have him as Birds back up as opposed to Bird being Carrolls back up?

Personally I’d push for 3 of the 4 signings to be centre backs to build an experienced base from. The top end of the pitch and the top end of the midfield areas don’t concern me too much.

[May Contain Nuts]

35 minutes ago, Rammy03 said:

I think he will. Shinnie isn't a holding midfielder, he is a box to box player. When he has played in that role, we have seen the best of him. He likes to win the ball and then drive forward. He doesn't have the passing range or physical dominance to be that holding midfielder, it just doesn't suit him.

The problem is he can't win the ball and then drive forward in the same move, it's one of the other, he can't turn on the ball and transition play from defence to attack. 

If he wins it facing his goal he'll pass it to where he'd facing, If he wins it facing away from goal he lacks the little burst of acceleration to then get away from the player he's tackled.

(When I say can't I don't mean he never does it, just that it's very rare and can't be described as a feature of his game) 

Eustace was hardly a physically dominant figure and his passing range wasn't impressive, but through experience and coaching he made a great DM.

Will Hughes is even further away from being physically dominant but he was surprising good at tracking back, putting in a tackle (in the turn) and advancing play.

I think despite my misgivings that Shinnie could be coached to play the role the same way as Eustace, but it would require far better coaches than the ones we've got.

Edited July 25, 2021 by Coconut

[Rammy03]

41 minutes ago, Jimbo Ram said:

Who will then until Bielik is back?

I would've said sign someone. I guess we'll just have to make do but I think shinnie is best in a box to box midfield role, not as a holding midfielder. 

[Igor Igor Whats the Score?]

43 minutes ago, Ravabeerbelly said:

I’m not sure where this lack of creativity idea comes from in the games so far…

I agree there’s a lack of goals….Neither CKR or Baldock have been prolific at any time in their careers so to suddenly expect in their twilight years is unrealistic and unfair. They offer what they offer and others will need to chip in with their fair share. 

Yesterday was what it was. A pretty season against a very difficult opponent who were very much more focused on a scalp and a result than you’d expect in a pre season game….which is good for us and why higher leagues clubs play lower league clubs pre season!

It showed how difficult league 2 can be and I know it was scoffed at when I compared it to being almost a different sport but they are. No time on the ball. Big physical uncompromising men. Direct football aiming at getting the ball into the box from far different areas than what we’d be used to dealing with. They had a 5 man press when we tried to play out and they had big lumps waiting to head it when we had to play over that rather than round it or through it. It was exactly what you need to face pre season when up until now it had consisted of training games, shape work, largely unopposed situations and a game against a like minded and mirror image Man U.

Im not too upset by it. We created lots of chances. 1st half Aluku should have had 2 both coming from good football. Morrison could’ve done better with his header. Carrol was unlucky with a curling effort. 

Second half Bird found Hutchinson (twice) and Sibley (ultimately for the goal) in identical positions as 10s on the half turn, from line breaking passes and all three times resulted in low crosses into the box from overlapping full backs, that could’ve been goal chances…even for the goal, forget it was an own goal…Hutchinson and Esobele were close and one of them would’ve scored even if the ball had been slightly misplaced (nos in the box). Add to that, McDonald played a lovely ball down the sides for Baldock who could’ve scored or I think he may have tried to play across goal where we had a player at the far post for a tap in….again midfield players in the box…then we have the gaping open goal from Baldock following more good interplay and movement around the box.

Realistically they only looked like scoring twice and the pen was soft at best, whereas we could’ve easily scored 5/6 or even 7. Had we come away with a 4-1 win we’d all be jumping up and down about how we could be ok…..let alone if we’d scored more!!!

Im not stupid, clearly we need players and clearly the end result was a loss and championship games will be a different kettle of fish but I feel we’re getting carried away and that’s not good whether it be over positive or over negative. 

Finally I think Aluko is a wasted registration. He doesn’t offer anymore than some of the youngsters we have who can play that role (Esobele / Sibley / Hutchinson - maybe in that order). Carroll offers much the same as Bird. Bird is ours and come through our academy why bin him off for a 1 season pay day like Carroll? I’d see Watson as this type too so I’d happily have him as Birds back up as opposed to Bird being Carrolls back up?

Personally I’d push for 3 of the 4 signings to be centre backs to build an experienced base from. The top end of the pitch and the top end of the midfield areas don’t concern me too much.

This!!

[RoyMac5]

1 hour ago, Ravabeerbelly said:

Carroll offers much the same as Bird. Bird is ours and come through our academy why bin him off for a 1 season pay day like Carroll? I’d see Watson as this type too so I’d happily have him as Birds back up as opposed to Bird being Carrolls back up?

Carroll had a best in Championship stat last season for forward passing - what was Birds for? Thought they looked okay together but still it'll take some effort to keep out of the relegation zone with our troubles. Big yes to Carroll from me.

[Carl Sagan]

12 hours ago, Curtains said:

You are better than this mate 

Nice of you to say, but it was an incredible contrast to see Sibley on the field compared with all the other players. The only one who got stuck in. Who wanted to drag our team forward by whatever means that worked. Who looked much more powerful than last season (he's been working hard on his physique) and wasn't prepared to accept meek defeat. 

I have to call what I see, when Rooney gives pitch time to Ravel Morrison who has shown for the last decade at every club he's been that he cannot do a job, sidelining the most gifted player we've had since Giles Barnes.

I want playing for Derby to matter to our players, but last season they were largely happy to pass the ball backwards and sideways, lose the ball, concede a goal and lose 1-0. Supine defeat, week after week after week. There's little more depressing in football than never looking as if you're going to score a goal. That was the situation all last season when the only possibility was CKR making something happen out of nothing.

It has to change, but as we approach the start of the season, I see no evidence that Rooney is going to change anything. Of course he has been dealt a miserable hand but when he discards his high value cards, he has only himself to blame.

 

[Jimbo Ram]

4 hours ago, Chris_Martin said:

actually to me it is quite surprising. We have had various CB's playing and various strikers playing in Wayne's time here. But it just doesn't seem to be working. All i can see is us getting worse and worse every game, there isn't a single player who Wayne has improved. When he was appointed manager i desperately wanted it to work out but unfortunately it just hasn't. We need someone who knows what they're doing as it's clear this season will be as much, if not more of a struggle than last year. 

Very true. I asked in a separate thread a while back if anyone could give examples of how Rooney had improved the team since taking over and in 5 pages of responses nobody could come up with a single example.