Have we progressed under Cocu?

[Comrade 86]

Ask again in a couple of months and we might have a sensible sample to assess this from. Two games in after the year we've had seems a little too early to be forming any hard and fast opinions, least to my way of thinking.

Assuming we've not lost Kamil for any length of time and that the likes of Bielik, Lawrence, Waggy and co are going to be back inside that timeframe, you'd expect to see a rather more effective attacking unit than we're currently able to put out there. I'd also expect us to sign 2 to 3 more players in the current window which should also see a marked uplift in fortunes. 

 

[JuanFloEvraTheCocu'sNesta]

Progressed? No. 

We did however need to go through a bit of pain to sort our squad out and navigate some tricky times thanks to FFP. 

We'll be stronger as a result in the long run. 

[UTFR]

The side we had under Rowett was the oldest in the league so although we did OK the team had no future. Short term approach to recruitment.

The side we had under Lampard was topped up by loan players, so again as good as we were to get to the PO final, there was no second crack at it with that team so even if Frank stayed, or someone else took over it needed starting again.

This team that Cocu is building, is young, has a good blend and lots of potential (with additions to come in this and the next couple of windows also) so depends what you see as progress. We might not go up this year, we might even finish in a position slightly lower than we did last year. But the core of the squad will be largely the same, same manager. The ethos, the vision all a constant, and these young players will Improve and we will eventually get there. The foundations are there now. We just need a little patience.

[IslandExile]

21 minutes ago, UTFR said:

The side we had under Rowett was the oldest in the league so although we did OK the team had no future. Short term approach to recruitment.

The side we had under Lampard was topped up by loan players, so again as good as we were to get to the PO final, there was no second crack at it with that team so even if Frank stayed, or someone else took over it needed starting again.

This team that Cocu is building, is young, has a good blend and lots of potential (with additions to come in this and the next couple of windows also) so depends what you see as progress. We might not go up this year, we might even finish in a position slightly lower than we did last year. But the core of the squad will be largely the same, same manager. The ethos, the vision all a constant, and these young players will Improve and we will eventually get there. The foundations are there now. We just need a little patience.

Brilliant post.?

[SK47]

We have been spoilt with some good seasons in recent years, however our situation at the moment is nothing to do with Cocu. Like some have mentioned, he's had a lot to deal with. If he had the money previous managers have had to spend, I'm sure the team/signings would of been sorted a lot sooner, but right now hes having to work within the limitations that previous regimes have caused.

 

However, building a strong squad from the ground up will allow a better chance of staying in the prem if/when we get there. I also think that we are only performing at 50% with the players we have fit.. soon as we have a full team to choose from and a couple new additions if possible, we will be alright ?

[Shaftesbury Street]

The reality is he's been dealt a poo hand, he doesn't have a very good squad. My only issue is, one year in, I'm not sure what our identity is? Are we total football? High pressing balls out? poohouse merchants? Counter attacking? 

Not a clue and whatever he's trying to instill on the team atm, its not working. 

[Alph]

No. Not yet. 

Play off semi under Rowett, Final under Lampard. 

1.3 goals pg, lose more than we win, concede more than we score, no cup runs and less points last season than the Pearson/Mac/Rowett season. The lowest points total since Nigel Clough's last full season i think. 

I don't see how anyone can claim we have improved.

That doesn't mean we won't or the foundations aren't being laid to do even better. 

The debate to be had is whether you believe we will get better rather than whether we have got better

[Shaftesbury Street]

3 minutes ago, Shaftesbury Street said:

The reality is he's been dealt a poo hand, he doesn't have a very good squad. My only issue is, one year in, I'm not sure what our identity is? Are we total football? High pressing balls out? poohouse merchants? Counter attacking? 

Not a clue and whatever he's trying to instill on the team atm, its not working. 

Poo house is much better than shthouse btw

[Marriot Ram99]

In a word, No. 

However there has been a massive amount of extenuating circumstances with injuries and off field events. 

Minimum we should expect even with injuries is midtable though, so if after 10 games we are on less than 10 points that's when I would want him sacked. End of the season 15th or 16th has to be about the minimum, any less and I would say he has to go. Doubt we will be that bad though. 

[Gee SCREAMER !!]

1 hour ago, Chris_Martin said:

"owever, in terms of playing style and results etc, are we actually any better than when he first took the job over a year ago now."

No. Do we have the depth we had when he arrived =-no. is his system set up to get the best from these players=no. Will we get better if he brings in 3/4 more players to fit his system= don't know, but he's not working in the most patient or forgiving league so if he's not willing to adapt to certain aspects of this league and by the look of it make the players fitter he'll probably struggle. 

[Ambitious]

The Derby team Lampard had included Harry Wilson, Fikayo Tomori and Mason Mount on loan. Not to mention Richard Keogh and a whole host of experienced/aging pros that were established in the Championship ultimately on the downward trajectory of their careers. 

The Derby team is currently battling injuries to our top attacking players, Lawrence and Waghorn. We don’t have the depth we once had, due to cuts. We are putting emphasis on player progression and new players are still finding their roles and feet. 

We do have a team and squad now on the upward trajectory of their career and player progression is absolutely paramount to our future success. Unfortunately, these things take time and players progress differently. We will see the situation at the end of the season, but I feel like this team will finish stronger than last season. 

[Comrade 86]

It's the age old conundrum with a good few on here. They want success but are not prepared to allow a manager to build a side. Two games into the season and folk are already calling for Cocu to resign! Tells you all you need to know really ?‍♀️

[Jourdan]

As much as we all want Cocu to succeed, does anyone else feel this division is too unforgiving?

We all understand our position - we have many key players to return from injury, we need new players to give us impetus, and then we need to give our new signings time to settle and for a unit to form. It could be November, December or even January before we see this team at its best. 

What concerns me is this division is simply too competitive to play a waiting game. You can’t just wait for the perfect circumstances to fall into place before you get results on the board. Sometimes you simply have to knuckle down and get the best out of what you’ve got.

Teams like Reading, Luton, Sheff Wed, Rotherham and Wycombe can’t afford to wait for the stars to align. They will be battling and showing a hunger for each and every point. Why should we be any different?

Yet we are feeling sorry for ourselves and assuming our extra quality will bail us out eventually. For me, it’s a dangerous and arrogant mentality to have and not one that will lead to any sustained success.

How many times do we hear ‘The other side wanted it more’ when it comes to our opposition? Everything you saw in that Luton side we lack.

We lack application, spirit, fight, organisation, hunger and desire - the fundamentals to respond when things aren’t going our way. When you marry that with an obvious lack of quality, it’s a recipe for disaster.

How do we expect to succeed? Good teams know how to adjust and find results when they are up against it. They have to show some grit, some courage, make themselves difficult to beat and do the basics well. We are way too soft.

This season is already following a similar pattern as the last one. A slow and uninspiring start and everything pointing towards a real struggle, but the worry for me is that we are just getting complacent by assuming lightning will strike twice and things can only improve.

The quicker we realise we’re not too good to be down the bottom end of the table the better. You can’t just write off 10-15 games no matter how good you are.

[IslandExile]

9 hours ago, Jourdan said:

As much as we all want Cocu to succeed, does anyone else feel this division is too unforgiving?

We all understand our position - we have many key players to return from injury, we need new players to give us impetus, and then we need to give our new signings time to settle and for a unit to form. It could be November, December or even January before we see this team at its best. 

What concerns me is this division is simply too competitive to play a waiting game. You can’t just wait for the perfect circumstances to fall into place before you get results on the board. Sometimes you simply have to knuckle down and get the best out of what you’ve got.

Teams like Reading, Luton, Sheff Wed, Rotherham and Wycombe can’t afford to wait for the stars to align. They will be battling and showing a hunger for each and every point. Why should we be any different?

Yet we are feeling sorry for ourselves and assuming our extra quality will bail us out eventually. For me, it’s a dangerous and arrogant mentality to have and not one that will lead to any sustained success.

How many times do we hear ‘The other side wanted it more’ when it comes to our opposition? Everything you saw in that Luton side we lack.

We lack application, spirit, fight, organisation, hunger and desire - the fundamentals to respond when things aren’t going our way. When you marry that with an obvious lack of quality, it’s a recipe for disaster.

How do we expect to succeed? Good teams know how to adjust and find results when they are up against it. They have to show some grit, some courage, make themselves difficult to beat and do the basics well. We are way too soft.

This season is already following a similar pattern as the last one. A slow and uninspiring start and everything pointing towards a real struggle, but the worry for me is that we are just getting complacent by assuming lightning will strike twice and things can only improve.

The quicker we realise we’re not too good to be down the bottom end of the table the better. You can’t just write off 10-15 games no matter how good you are.

 

9 hours ago, 86 Schmokes & a Pancake said:

It's the age old conundrum with a good few on here. They want success but are not prepared to allow a manager to build a side. Two games into the season and folk are already calling for Cocu to resign! Tells you all you need to know really ?‍♀️

Reversed the order of these posts to illustrate 86's point. Not just Jourdan but a vocal bunch on here would have the new team instantly gel despite the curtailed preseason.

Just what is the "best this team can produce"? No defensive errors (because that's why we lost)? The reserve players, in for the injured attacking players, create chance after chance in up tempo fast flowing football?

And anyone who says they're not trying, not "wanting it", just isn't watching it. Some in this squad aren't good enough. Simple as. But they're still working hard.

Please.... Be realistic. Be patient. Give Cocu, the team, the club a chance. Sheesh.

[Alph]

9 hours ago, 86 Schmokes & a Pancake said:

It's the age old conundrum with a good few on here. They want success but are not prepared to allow a manager to build a side. Two games into the season and folk are already calling for Cocu to resign! Tells you all you need to know really ?‍♀️

I think I've only seen 3 call for his head. I think even his biggest critics accept that there's a bigger picture even if they aren't entirely sure whether it will be any good or not

Unless we include twitter where I bet even Mel Morris gets plenty of hate. It's horrible on there.

[i-Ram]

Team no, not yet. Club significantly.

[Woodley Ram]

I think this is a project that a lot would have run away from, he has stuck at it and you can see what he is building on a limited budget. I trust Cocu and his training team, I think we are building something special but it will take time

[Sparkle]

We have gone from a club who recklessly signed over paid players who basically struggled generally to achieve the highs in football to a club needing to generate cash from the academy to replace those over paid players which Cocu is actually doing very well at. He was and has been served up a right poor hand and is actually doing a very decent job with it. We will be fine when we settle down and yes we clearly need a centre forward who is decent which is still Damm hard to find 

[kash_a_ram_a_ding_dong]

26 minutes ago, Alpha said:

I think I've only seen 3 call for his head. I think even his biggest critics accept that there's a bigger picture even if they aren't entirely sure whether it will be any good or not

Unless we include twitter where I bet even Mel Morris gets plenty of hate. It's horrible on there.

Agree with all of this and your previous quote.... Cocu,amongst us at least,has some breathing space.

Personally,I’ve found his tenure frustrating.

He was just the sort of manager I wanted at the club after Rowett,a 4-3-3 Dutchman (a real one this time) who would return us to that easy on the eye,super flowing football that I love.

The reality has been somewhat different,a similar start to last season and football that bears little comparison to what I expected in the most part (apart from just before lockdown when it started to come together)

But...how can we judge Cocu yet when he and the club have had to deal with so much over the past 12 months?...it’s impossible.

In six months time when we are back to something approaching full strength and have had the time to watch what cocu ball actually adds up to,then we can fairly do so.

I have my doubts in some aspects but we have to give him time (unless we lose every game between now and then and that will try even mels patience I suspect)

 

[Alph]

11 minutes ago, IslandExile said:

 

Reversed the order of these posts to illustrate 86's point. Not just Jourdan but a vocal bunch on here would have the new team instantly gel despite the curtailed preseason.

That's not what anyone has said. 

In another thread you said people spew out a cliche about slow, ponderous sideways passing. 

The argument is that we don't mix our game up. That's not to say we should abandon philosophy either. There's a vast chasm between Cocu and Mick McCarthy. 

Last season nobody had the ball in the final third less than us. Nobody put in less crosses than us. We were 19th for long balls per game. We were 20th for shots per game. 21st for being caught offside. But top 6 for pass completion and 6th for possession

People aren't spewing out a cliche. The majority of the football under Cocu has been safety first. The ball statistically clearly isn't heading towards the goal. People are claiming it's not heading towards the goal. People are saying the team is narrow and lacks any creativity and passes sideways. It does. The stats support the spewed out cliche.

Nobody expects instant results. Most critics can put forward a sensible debate without anyone making out they have said something they haven't.

I see that a few times. People arguing against an opinion or statement that was never made.

Like, "Cocu is negative. We just..  (then an evaluation)

And you get replies like "oh, we'll just get a new manager every 6 months and then write them off straight away"

Jourdan isn't expecting instant anything. But you do have to get results. And you can't just wait for everything to be in place. 

I'm as big of a fan of Mac's Derby as anyone. His team was decimated in 2 key positions. DM and CF even our back up was injured. And Mac continued to play with the same approach. Hoping somebody would morph into Martin/Bent and Thorne/Eustace/Mascarell. The injuries were a credible excuse but the results don't give a toss. Mac didn't adapt to what he had and Derby dropped

Cocu needs to come outside of his philosophy a bit. Expand it, adapt it to include average Championship players.

Yesterday the second half was better for the variety of passing and the use of all the pitch. For the crossing and more direct balls. He did that without Waghorn, Lawrence, Bogle or Lowe. And we looked better. You can do it without Bielik and Rooney. You can do it if you're Barrow and Reading and Luton (see their best chances)

We don't do it enough. We haven't done it enough. And that is the criticism of Cocu. Not that he's not a magician