Have we progressed under Cocu?

[Rammy03]

6 hours ago, Alpha said:

Yesterday the second half was better for the variety of passing and the use of all the pitch. For the crossing and more direct balls. He did that without Waghorn, Lawrence, Bogle or Lowe. And we looked better. You can do it without Bielik and Rooney. You can do it if you're Barrow and Reading and Luton

This. 

[FlyBritishMidland]

The job Cocu has on his hands is very similar to the one Clough Jnr had - reduce the squad/wage bill and bring the average age down.  Whilst we’ve come close the last few seasons the managers have had a short term approach as some other posters have said.  Cocu is the first one since Nigel C to have a long-term view.  It took Nigel 4/5 years to get a squad capable of challenging.  I’m not saying it will take that long this time and, yes, recent performances have not been great but sometimes you need to go slower to move quicker - stick with the plan and if your patient it will come off.

I also think that once he gets the players he wants the style and intensity will improve and that may take more than this window.  Last time we had to change manager to realise what the players were capable of.  This time I don’t think we’ll need to, just get the right players in, injured ones back and hopefully he has a massive change in luck as he’s surely due!!

[hintonsboots]

I’m happy to see how the team performs when we have the A team on the pitch. A very good front man is vital to improve us though and Bielik will be a huge influence on this team.

 It’s a shame we came up against two teams we would normally be expecting to beat with a full squad available. Would rather started v Brentford and Bournemouth who will get promoted automatically and which would have been free hits while we’re depleted.

[Posh Ram]

6 hours ago, Anag Ram said:

Rooney's a great sub to have. 

Trouble is, I'll bet the sponsors would have a say. 

Yeah, I completely agree with you.

Whatever the game situation, Rooney is a really valuable player to have on the pitch for the final 15-30 minutes.

If we're drawing or losing, he can provide a killer pass or a bit of magic from a free-kick.

If we're holding a narrow lead, he can function as a coach on the pitch, making sure we're defending properly and offering a bit of guidance to the more inexperienced players.

He's also versatile enough to cover central midfield, attacking midfield and up front.

[May Contain Nuts]

Just now, Posh Ram said:

Whatever the game situation, Rooney is a really valuable player to have on the pitch for the final 15-30 minutes.

If we're drawing or losing, he can provide a killer pass or a bit of magic from a free-kick.

Just don't ask him to score a goal from open play because you'll be poo outta luck.

[Uptherams]

1 hour ago, Coolascustard said:

The job Cocu has on his hands is very similar to the one Clough Jnr had - reduce the squad/wage bill and bring the average age down.  Whilst we’ve come close the last few seasons the managers have had a short term approach as some other posters have said.  Cocu is the first one since Nigel C to have a long-term view.  It took Nigel 4/5 years to get a squad capable of challenging.  I’m not saying it will take that long this time and, yes, recent performances have not been great but sometimes you need to go slower to move quicker - stick with the plan and if your patient it will come off.

I also think that once he gets the players he wants the style and intensity will improve and that may take more than this window.  Last time we had to change manager to realise what the players were capable of.  This time I don’t think we’ll need to, just get the right players in, injured ones back and hopefully he has a massive change in luck as he’s surely due!!

He should probably dip into the U23's again ? I'm genuinely shocked out how much better they are on the ball, moving the ball about quickly and high tempo compared to the first team right now. 

[Archied]

21 hours ago, Jourdan said:

As much as we all want Cocu to succeed, does anyone else feel this division is too unforgiving?

We all understand our position - we have many key players to return from injury, we need new players to give us impetus, and then we need to give our new signings time to settle and for a unit to form. It could be November, December or even January before we see this team at its best. 

What concerns me is this division is simply too competitive to play a waiting game. You can’t just wait for the perfect circumstances to fall into place before you get results on the board. Sometimes you simply have to knuckle down and get the best out of what you’ve got.

Teams like Reading, Luton, Sheff Wed, Rotherham and Wycombe can’t afford to wait for the stars to align. They will be battling and showing a hunger for each and every point. Why should we be any different?

Yet we are feeling sorry for ourselves and assuming our extra quality will bail us out eventually. For me, it’s a dangerous and arrogant mentality to have and not one that will lead to any sustained success.

How many times do we hear ‘The other side wanted it more’ when it comes to our opposition? Everything you saw in that Luton side we lack.

We lack application, spirit, fight, organisation, hunger and desire - the fundamentals to respond when things aren’t going our way. When you marry that with an obvious lack of quality, it’s a recipe for disaster.

How do we expect to succeed? Good teams know how to adjust and find results when they are up against it. They have to show some grit, some courage, make themselves difficult to beat and do the basics well. We are way too soft.

This season is already following a similar pattern as the last one. A slow and uninspiring start and everything pointing towards a real struggle, but the worry for me is that we are just getting complacent by assuming lightning will strike twice and things can only improve.

The quicker we realise we’re not too good to be down the bottom end of the table the better. You can’t just write off 10-15 games no matter how good you are.

Is it this division that is too unforgiving or is it us fans that are too unforgiving? There’s no doubt that some locked on when he played the kids v forest and some see a few bad performances and no amount of good ones can change them as they paint themselves into a corner but happily there are some on here that are prepared to give him time with an open mind

[cannable]

You have to break it down.

We regressed, through no fault of Cocu, in losing; Bryson, Johnson, Mount, Tomori, Keogh, Wilson and (due to cost) Carson. Seven starters from a side that finished sixth. 

Granted, Lampard had signed Rooney.

In spite of this we finished just four league places lower. Yes, we’ve had youngsters come through but that’s neutral in my book. Good players for free but Cocu’s had to give them the chance. There is also a seemingly endless list of clusterfucks that Covid has had to deal with ranging from pre-season friendlies being called off due to tropical thunderstorms, drink driving court cases, a legal case from the league and the local radio station, well, that. 

From the end of last season we have lost our joint top scorer, who was also our top assister. We have also lost our second top assister. Huddlestone has also left whom we wanted to keep. 

On top of this, two of what would be our starting front four are injured (on top of the one who has already left). 

Have we regressed under Cocu? Yes? 

Have we regressed BECAUSE of Cocu? Absolutely not. 

The style of play is more defined than it was under Lampard. The average age is down. The wage bill is down. 

[The Scarlet Pimpernel]

I think the difference saturday was Rooney. Once he took control at the back we started playing in their half. He found a forward outball pretty consistently. 

Thought Wisfom was good on the ball as well. Would keep him in the side. 

[RamNut]

Have we progressed?

i think we are in exactly the same place as we were a year ago.

Towards the end of last season, I thought we were getting somewhere with bogle, Lowe, bird, knight and Sibley. Chris Martin was rotating with Waghorn. We could see where we primarily needed to strengthen - wingers, central defence, keeper. 

By releasing Martin and selling bogle and Lowe we have given ourselves a lot of extra work to do in terms of recruitment at a time when ffp limitations make it very difficult.

byrne looks ok, but we needed a second right back anyway.

te wierek will hopefully settle down, but right now we look like we are missing a strong centre half at the back.

reverting to fozzy feels like a backwards step.

We are missing an alternative centre forward to lead the attack and hold the ball.

 

 

[LE_Ram]

I think we all agree that the ultimate objective should be to be promoted to the Premier League, so we should judge Cocu based on progress towards that goal.

The way I see it there's two ways to get out of this league:

• Spend big like Leicester
• Build a cohesive team like Sheffield United

It's quite clear we won't be able to do option A, especially with the head start given to parachute payment teams, so that leaves us with option B.

 

In that regard, we ought to assess Cocu based on how we're progressing towards building a settled and cohesive team - theoretically once that's done, the ultimate goal should be achievable.

Write last season off - he wasn't able to get the players he wanted in, there were off field incidents aplenty with the drink driving fiasco taking out arguably our best CB and the soft embargo from those incompetent Bamfords at the EFL.

So - how well is he doing at building his team? Well, we've had probably our best window in a long time with the likes of Marshall, Byrne, Clarke back on loan, Jozwiak, and hopefully Ibe + maybe new striker? Crucially these are all Cocu's signings and we saw on Saturday green shoots of it starting to come together. Although we lost, the stats show we (especially in the second half) played well and were unlucky to come away with nothing.

We've also seen that we're finally using the players from our academy, with long term deals for the likes of Bird and Sibley. Cocu has shown he is willing to bring these players through and blood them into the first team - this is a long term project, the kids won't slot straight in like an experienced player, but they will learn and get better.

 

I'll stop rambling now but to sum up:

• Promotion is the long term goal
• To get there, we have to build a settled and cohesive side
• We will only do that if we let Cocu continue to build his team
• We have promising players, now we just need to get them firing
• Saturday showed us what we should be working towards
• Blooding the youth is an important part of this, and Cocu has shown he is willing to do so

[SFox1993]

11 hours ago, cannable said:

You have to break it down.

We regressed, through no fault of Cocu, in losing; Bryson, Johnson, Mount, Tomori, Keogh, Wilson and (due to cost) Carson. Seven starters from a side that finished sixth. 

Granted, Lampard had signed Rooney.

In spite of this we finished just four league places lower. Yes, we’ve had youngsters come through but that’s neutral in my book. Good players for free but Cocu’s had to give them the chance. There is also a seemingly endless list of clusterfucks that Covid has had to deal with ranging from pre-season friendlies being called off due to tropical thunderstorms, drink driving court cases, a legal case from the league and the local radio station, well, that. 

From the end of last season we have lost our joint top scorer, who was also our top assister. We have also lost our second top assister. Huddlestone has also left whom we wanted to keep. 

On top of this, two of what would be our starting front four are injured (on top of the one who has already left). 

Have we regressed under Cocu? Yes? 

Have we regressed BECAUSE of Cocu? Absolutely not. 

The style of play is more defined than it was under Lampard. The average age is down. The wage bill is down. 

I dont think Lampard signed Rooney

[Dcfcsr92]

3 hours ago, The Scarlet Pimpernel said:

I think the difference saturday was Rooney. Once he took control at the back we started playing in their half. He found a forward outball pretty consistently. 

Thought Wisfom was good on the ball as well. Would keep him in the side. 

I thought bird made the difference 2nd half when he went slightly more attacking he was more like a Henderson for Liverpool found alot of good passes instead of going back and sideways every time 

[The Scarlet Pimpernel]

32 minutes ago, Dcfcsr92 said:

I thought bird made the difference 2nd half when he went slightly more attacking he was more like a Henderson for Liverpool found alot of good passes instead of going back and sideways every time 

Yes, but that was because of Rooney behind him taking responsibility off him . Imo of course.

[Igorwasking]

I honestly don’t know if we have improved or not. I agree with an earlier poster that he has certainly laid stronger foundations - removed deadwood, streamlined the wage bill and brought through several promising youngsters.

The playing side is harder to judge. As a club, we had a shocking succession of crisis hit the club - which he appears to have navigated. There is no doubt in my mind that the football (largely) that we have witnessed this season (and parts of last season) have been turgid. However - because of everything I have typed up to this point - I am willing to give him until the next winger and next striker sign. If the football is still turgid after that - I think his tenure becomes tricky.

However, I am choosing to believe that if that winger is Ibe, and if the striker is half decent - we will see a much different philosophy on the pitch - and questions like the OP will become few and far between.

[cannable]

3 hours ago, SFox1993 said:

I dont think Lampard signed Rooney

He was the one that initially made contact and put the wheels into motion, Cocu was given the final say but it had all been sorted already 

[NottsRam77]

On 19/09/2020 at 22:16, Andicis said:

Difficult to answer question. The overall health of the club has definitely improved, we've cut the fat from the squad, made some money from player sales and made our wage bill much more manageable. For a multitude of reasons, we're not making great strides forwards on the pitch, but we at least are building the ground work to make that happen.

We've had our most positive transfer window in a long time. 

Re positive transfer window 

we hope !!! 

[NottsRam77]

21 hours ago, Coolascustard said:

The job Cocu has on his hands is very similar to the one Clough Jnr had - reduce the squad/wage bill and bring the average age down.  Whilst we’ve come close the last few seasons the managers have had a short term approach as some other posters have said.  Cocu is the first one since Nigel C to have a long-term view.  It took Nigel 4/5 years to get a squad capable of challenging.  I’m not saying it will take that long this time and, yes, recent performances have not been great but sometimes you need to go slower to move quicker - stick with the plan and if your patient it will come off.

I also think that once he gets the players he wants the style and intensity will improve and that may take more than this window.  Last time we had to change manager to realise what the players were capable of.  This time I don’t think we’ll need to, just get the right players in, injured ones back and hopefully he has a massive change in luck as he’s surely due!!

Completely agree 

Only thing I’d add is that clough still didn’t get anywhere near the same budget 

Reported 8m on bielik was probably more Than clough was given over 3 seasons 

[Spanish]

23 minutes ago, NottsRam77 said:

Completely agree 

Only thing I’d add is that clough still didn’t get anywhere near the same budget 

Reported 8m on bielik was probably more Than clough was given over 3 seasons 

yep that purchase still sticks out as odd given our financial background then and now.  Even if it is £4 + £4 it still looks risky

[FlyBritishMidland]

4 hours ago, NottsRam77 said:

Completely agree 

Only thing I’d add is that clough still didn’t get anywhere near the same budget 

Reported 8m on bielik was probably more Than clough was given over 3 seasons 

Fair point.  To be fair this season it looks like he’s balancing the books both in terms of salaries and transfer fees.  Personally, I like that as it makes any success seem more valued and earned.