Have we progressed under Cocu?

[RoyMac5]

11 minutes ago, Coconut said:

He got the best out of them last season, IMO, or very nearly the best given all of the circumstances.

There was quite a lot of quite dull football.

[May Contain Nuts]

2 minutes ago, G-Ram said:

Im not paid to manage Derby. That's Cocu's job which he is currently failing at.

We look terrible & im not sure how anyone is still trying to defend him. There is nothing to suggest we will come good. 

Exactly the answer I expected.

I really don't see any specific strength we, collectively, as a squad have which we could maximise for short term gain in order to grind out some results.

[Rammy03]

6 minutes ago, Coconut said:

We couldn't defend under him either

But we scored goals, we were exciting. He gave the players belief. 2-0 down and you'd still believe you would win. That attitude and mentality comes from the manager.

Some fans blame the players now for not putting effort in as if cocu isn't at all responsible for the collective mentality of the team. 

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1 minute ago, RoyMac5 said:

There was quite a lot of quite dull football.

There was, yes.

What last season's squad was missing, vitally, was pace and creativity from the wide areas. It was a few small additions from being top 6 material.

..and then Martin ducked off, Waghorn & Lawrence got injured in pre-season & Rooney ate all the hamburgers leaving us with yet another mountain to climb.

 

 

[RoyMac5]

3 minutes ago, Coconut said:

..and then Martin ducked off,

Lol! Pay peanuts get monkeys! Do you think we couldn't match BC or did we not want to?!

[May Contain Nuts]

13 minutes ago, Rammy03 said:

But we scored goals, we were exciting. He gave the players belief. 2-0 down and you'd still believe you would win. That attitude and mentality comes from the manager.

Some fans blame the players now for not putting effort in as if cocu isn't at all responsible for the collective mentality of the team. 

Only when we had Premier League quality players in the squad, and sometimes not even then.

We certainly didn't show much positive attitude & mentality in the 2 league defeats to Leeds, the 4-0 drubbing away at Villa or the 3-0 home defeat, both defeats to Millwall, the losses at Rotherham & Blackburn, the standard rubbish defeat & draw against Forest to name a few.

It's understandable that the late season hysteria has left a lasting impression, but it may be a little bit of a false one when considering the season as a whole.

 

[May Contain Nuts]

3 minutes ago, RoyMac5 said:

Lol! Pay peanuts get monkeys! Do you think we couldn't match BC or did we not want to?!

I'd dearly love to get into a Martin debate, but it's not relevant to the point, which is that for whatever reason he isn't here anymore, we haven't got a suitable replacement and it's one less thing available for us to "get the best out of"

[Rammy03]

2 minutes ago, Coconut said:

We certainly didn't show much positive attitude & mentality in the 2 league defeats to Leeds, the 4-0 drubbing at Villa, both defeats to Millwall, the losses at Rotherham & Blackburn, the standard rubbish defeat & draw against Forest to name a few.

That happens, it's football. But we got ourselves out of it. I don't see any of that happening under cocu. We are consistently crap.

[RoyMac5]

2 minutes ago, Coconut said:

we haven't got a suitable replacement

Well Cocu has had an inkling that Martin wouldn't re-sign since January when he became a free agent - not done much about it has he?

[G-Ram]

Just now, Coconut said:

Exactly the answer I expected.

I really don't see any specific strength we, collectively, as a squad have which we could maximise for short term gain in order to grind out some results.

He's paid to manage Derby. He's failing. End of. 

He's calling out players attitude in the post match interview. Its his job to motivate them. Whilst lampard was tactically nieve the players looked like they would run through walls for him. We now can't even be bothered to pressure the opposition keeper when they go to kick it or close down. 

Regarding tatics Curtis Davies would provide more experience defensively & is probably our best defender from a defensive perspective. Its a defenders job to defend so start with that then playing out from the back afterwards. Him and clarke or wisdom & clarke. On the right playing side would be a start

Shinnie box to box instead of Rooney. Playing two up top give their defenders someone else to mark instead of making it easy for marriott to be outnumbered. If were over run in midfield play a flat 5 with birds job to sit if a wing back pushes on. You could then get knight & shinnie in the centre with bird if you play 5 in the middle. Kamil one side holmes the other with whats available 

There are multiple solutions to play better football. Start by motivating & picking up the boys. 

He's clearly failing. We need to just start by having a bit more urgency & desire which comes from man managing.

Like i say i dont have the solution im not paid ti manage the club. But what we have at the moment is rubbish 

[Rammy03]

3 minutes ago, Coconut said:

Only when we had Premier League quality players in the squad.

So what is he supposed to do? Take them out of the squad just so we can make a judgement on his managerial ability with no premier League quality players? Irrespective of that, like I said before, there was a buzz when lampard was here. Whether the players were good or bad, he gave them belief, he gave the fans belief. Our attitude and mentality under cocu is consistently poor. Why don't you think he is responsible for that? 

[May Contain Nuts]

2 minutes ago, G-Ram said:

He's paid to manage Derby. He's failing. End of. 

He's calling out players attitude in the post match interview. Its his job to motivate them. Whilst lampard was tactically nieve the players looked like they would run through walls for him. We now can't even be bothered to pressure the opposition keeper when they go to kick it or close down. 

Regarding tatics Curtis Davies would provide more experience defensively & is probably our best defender from a defensive perspective. Its a defenders job to defend so start with that then playing out from the back afterwards. Him and clarke or wisdom & clarke. On the right playing side would be a start

Shinnie box to box instead of Rooney. Playing two up top give their defenders someone else to mark instead of making it easy for marriott to be outnumbered. If were over run in midfield play a flat 5 with birds job to sit if a wing back pushes on. You could then get knight & shinnie in the centre with bird if you play 5 in the middle. Kamil one side holmes the other with whats available 

There are multiple solutions to play better football. Start by motivating & picking up the boys. 

He's clearly failing. We need to just start by having a bit more urgency & desire which comes from man managing.

Like i say i dont have the solution im not paid ti manage the club. But what we have at the moment is rubbish 

Good post, glad I could coax it out of you!

[Rammy03]

4 minutes ago, G-Ram said:

He's calling out players attitude in the post match interview. Its his job to motivate them. Whilst lampard was tactically nieve the players looked like they would run through walls for him. We now can't even be bothered to pressure the opposition keeper when they go to kick it or close down. 

This is spot on. These are the problems that are not down to individual quality, they are down to the management and how we set up. 

[Ramsam]

No we haven’t progressed. And neither will we while we try to play a style of football way beyond the capability of the players we have.

Cocu seems to have committed to a plan but it is completely failing, the players clearly don’t have faith and look like they can’t be arsed anymore.

This is a bunch of players that should be top 6 and challenging automatic promotion but are not being managed to their strengths and currently look like cannon fodder.

[May Contain Nuts]

16 minutes ago, Rammy03 said:

So what is he supposed to do? Take them out of the squad just so we can make a judgement on his managerial ability with no premier League quality players? Irrespective of that, like I said before, there was a buzz when lampard was here. Whether the players were good or bad, he gave them belief, he gave the fans belief. Our attitude and mentality under cocu is consistently poor. Why don't you think he is responsible for that? 

It's easy to create a buzz and spread belief around when you've got players who are literally a division in quality above you, dragging other players up to their standard, or at least little way up.

All managers should be judged equally & individually, based on what they have at their disposal. You're comparing Lampard who had everything he could possibly want handed to him on a platter, to Cocu who's had the exact opposite. You can talk about a buzz all you want, but if Lampard had been dealt such a shitty hand and poor results had followed, there would not have been any buzz, regardless of his cheeky chappie routine and 'banter' with the fans.

Who says I don't think Cocu is responsible for the attitude of the players? I just understand how hard it must be to get a tune out of such disparate parts and motivate a squad for who nothing ever seems to go right.

If confidence is shattered it'll take more than one man bring it back up. Football success is momentum as much as anything, sometimes it just takes one bit of luck and that feeling comes flooding back, somtimes you just don't get that luck. It's not all the responsibility of one man, some of it, yes, but not all.

[Rammy03]

3 minutes ago, Coconut said:

Who says I don't think Cocu is responsible for the attitude of the players?

Because you blame the players for the general attitude of the entire group rather than Cocu. When I counter your points, you respond saying lampard had better players so it's easier to create a better mentality in the group. I just think that is false. The likes of Luton town have worse players than lampard and cocu yet they close the opposition down, they are aggressive, they have a good attitude.

[May Contain Nuts]

5 minutes ago, Rammy03 said:

Because you blame the players for the general attitude of the entire group rather than Cocu. When I counter your points, you respond saying lampard had better players so it's easier to create a better mentality in the group. I just think that is false. The likes of Luton town have worse players than lampard and cocu yet they close the opposition down, they are aggressive, they have a good attitude.

...and that's a fair point.

All I'm really trying to express to you is that there are a multitude of factors at play, and your comparisons to Lampard are neither fair or accurate.

I don't know why other teams manage to harness the plucky underdog spirit, fight for everything spirit & we're so lacklustre, but I don't think it's exclusively or entirely a management issue, more a snowball of circumstances, poor results & being poo outta luck when it comes to decisions made against us.

[Ramarena]

I said a few weeks ago that although we had problems in attack the continued defensive problems would lead to Cocus demise!

I think today accelerated that possibility, we are shipping goals at an alarming rate and it’s becoming harder to justify the managers position.

Ironically I thought we played some of our best attacking football this season (obviously a low bar) but the defensive side of our team is an utter shambles!

Mix this with the interview comments and this is where he sinks or swims.

I hope this is Cocus Tranmere moment ,but I fear it’s his Forest away!

[May Contain Nuts]

ANYWAY

I think I've fielded enough questions for one night (with very little backup!), so I won't be responding to any further posts!

We're all bitterly disappointed tonight, I'm just trying to keep some (internal) level of perspective about things.

[Rammy03]

11 minutes ago, Coconut said:

I don't know why other teams manage to harness the plucky underdog spirit, fight for everything spirit & we're so lacklustre, but I don't think it's exclusively or entirely a management issue, more a snowball of circumstances, poor results & being poo outta luck when it comes to decisions made against us.

Fair enough, I enjoyed the debate