Have we progressed under Cocu?

[Marriot Ram99]

32 minutes ago, i-Ram said:

Team no, not yet. Club significantly.

Team and club go hand in hand, not being funny but if we are in League 1 the clubs finances won't be looking very good. Yes that isn't likely but I wouldnt rule it out with how badly we have been defending and the lack of tenacity and defensive organisation. I expect to finish about 14th, but if we get more injuries we will have to cope with what we have and fight and scrap for points and I think we are very much a fair weather team, have been for years.

[IlsonDerby]

We’ve still got Bielik, Lawrence, Waghorn and MTW to return to this seasons first team squad. 
 

I’d say we currently have a younger, cheaper, more exciting squad with a much lower wage bill. 

I still think the last manager to give us exciting football consistently was MAC but would say during the spell leading up to lockdown and the couple of games after it we started to be exciting again last year. 
 

Lampard was mainly down to loan players we should never have had playing at this level. 
 

I think if Cocu left today - the squad and club would be in a better shape than when he took over which considering what he’s had to put up with whilst here that is above and beyond usual expectations he gets more time for me. 

[Dinnitdough]

Last season we needed a forward. This season we need a forward.
 

But we keep adding Defense and Keepers and Midfielders to the roster. 
Waggie is out on injury, sure Jack Marriott scored, but Derby is looking like a team of midfielders, with no one to pass the ball to. Rooney desperately urged his teammates up the pitch yesterday to no avail, long passes to Wozniak who had no one to pass it to and long shots on goal with zero direction, where is our final 1/3?
Even if we dont invest in a forward this year, I think a switch in formation is necessary.
4-5-1 has proven to lack sting.
 

[Rab a dab doo]

To get a true picture of where we as team and club are 'really' presently at.

We need to have' all/most our first team players fit and in the team and our transfer business complete. 

Only then will we get:

a. A true picture of what Cocu is trying to do with this team and its style of play.

b. How effective and successful we will playing as unit.

Until then playing a patchwork side composed of different players each week, having little or no continuity and without key personnel is bound to lead to indifferent results and performances.

Chin up its early days yet.

Keep the faith.  

[Big Trav]

On the pitch. No. Off the pitch. Massively 

[Half Fan Half Biscuit]

Surely Cocu is due some good luck sometime soon.

With most of our attacking options already out, Marriott scores for the first time in ages and gets injured.

Jozwiak - first game - looks like he's at least providing some spark and gets injured.

You couldn't make it up.

I think his hair will be completely grey soon.  

[atherstoneram]

When Cocu signed on the dotted line he knew the way the club wanted to move forward as outlined by MM, how many managers were interviewed besides PC and walked out of the door when told they would have to bring the youngsters through to the 1st team as they would have limited funds, they want a war chest to bring in players they want and rip the team apart to try and achieve instant success, MM tried that and failed. Cocu didn't have that luxury and knew he would have to nurture the young blooms to blossom that's why he has a Four year contract. With what Cocu has had to contend with so far (all out of his control,Two steps forward,One step back) i think he has done well and deserves credit.We may have had another manager in charge who would have got us relegated and walked. There was times last season he had a job to get a decent 1st team but never once have i seen his head drop or thought about walking away

If you were to ask PC if he is happy were he/the club are at in the present stage of his tenure i am sure it would be a resounding no but that's not to say he is failing, just all different events have conspired against him. We now have a manager and owner who are committed to the club and the reason he was given a Four year contract is that both MM and PC know that instant success doesn't happen overnight or even a couple of seasons but it will. I have not always been a fan of MM but i truly believe he made the correct decision in making PC manager. Other championship clubs would be delighted to have a manager of Cocus status.

For those already muttering we should get rid of Cocu, be careful what you wish for.

[Posh Ram]

I think the difference in how we played first/second half sums up the two sides of this debate.

First half I thought we were appalling. Reversion to the Lampard tendency of the goalkeeper and two centre-halves just passing amongst themselves, inflating our possession stats but not doing anything positive.

Second half we were keeping the ball in their half, patiently waiting for opportunities. That is more akin to 'possession football'. We need Wisdom and Clarke to push up to the halfway line and trap a side like Luton in their own half.

Byrne and Jozwiak were probably our best two players, excited to see more from them. I think the biggest challenge for Cocu going forward is Rooney. We still don't really know how to fit him into the team - imo Rooney/Bird doesn't work (would much prefer to see Rooney playing alongside Shinnie as their skill-sets are a bit more varied). It seemed ludicrous to start Rooney at no. 10 instead of Sibley. He might be over the hill judging how he played after the resumption of last season. I'd happily see him take more of a backseat this season as he clearly offers a lot as a coach and must be a great presence in the dressing room for the younger lads.

[secretsquirrel]

Cocu has been given the task of turning the tanker which unfortunately takes time-getting players of the wage bill has and still is in the case of Josefzoon is very very difficult.The problem he has ,as all managers do ,is that there is a section of support that demand instant gratification and success.We have to have a period of stability in the club and a realization that we are going to be dealing in a very different financial manner which will mean we cant pay huge fees and ridiculous wages going forward. Cocu has had a continuous set of problems to deal with which has slowed the rate progress but hopefully we will emerge with a team for the better playing football we will enjoy.

[Anag Ram]

10 minutes ago, Posh Ram said:

I think the difference in how we played first/second half sums up the two sides of this debate.

First half I thought we were appalling. Reversion to the Lampard tendency of the goalkeeper and two centre-halves just passing amongst themselves, inflating our possession stats but not doing anything positive.

Second half we were keeping the ball in their half, patiently waiting for opportunities. That is more akin to 'possession football'. We need Wisdom and Clarke to push up to the halfway line and trap a side like Luton in their own half.

Byrne and Jozwiak were probably our best two players, excited to see more from them. I think the biggest challenge for Cocu going forward is Rooney. We still don't really know how to fit him into the team - imo Rooney/Bird doesn't work (would much prefer to see Rooney playing alongside Shinnie as their skill-sets are a bit more varied). It seemed ludicrous to start Rooney at no. 10 instead of Sibley. He might be over the hill judging how he played after the resumption of last season. I'd happily see him take more of a backseat this season as he clearly offers a lot as a coach and must be a great presence in the dressing room for the younger lads.

Rooney's a great sub to have. 

Trouble is, I'll bet the sponsors would have a say. 

[Zag zig]

13 hours ago, Andicis said:

Difficult to answer question. The overall health of the club has definitely improved, we've cut the fat from the squad, made some money from player sales and made our wage bill much more manageable. For a multitude of reasons, we're not making great strides forwards on the pitch, but we at least are building the ground work to make that happen.

We've had our most positive transfer window in a long time. 

Exactly but Cocu bashing isn’t interested in building, only results and right now mentality.

12 hours ago, UTFR said:

The side we had under Rowett was the oldest in the league so although we did OK the team had no future. Short term approach to recruitment.

The side we had under Lampard was topped up by loan players, so again as good as we were to get to the PO final, there was no second crack at it with that team so even if Frank stayed, or someone else took over it needed starting again.

This team that Cocu is building, is young, has a good blend and lots of potential (with additions to come in this and the next couple of windows also) so depends what you see as progress. We might not go up this year, we might even finish in a position slightly lower than we did last year. But the core of the squad will be largely the same, same manager. The ethos, the vision all a constant, and these young players will Improve and we will eventually get there. The foundations are there now. We just need a little patience.

This ^

so little to add other than few managers keep getting dealt the cards he’s had and that’s having accepted he he had little preparation last year. For me the squad signings and shape with offloading is miles better, results will come with a bit of luck getting forwards back and in the building. Then he just has to gel a team formation together.

I’m certainly keeping faith until he gets his players all largely in place.

[May Contain Nuts]

1 hour ago, Alpha said:

Cocu needs to come outside of his philosophy a bit. Expand it, adapt it to include average Championship players.

Yesterday the second half was better for the variety of passing and the use of all the pitch. For the crossing and more direct balls. He did that without Waghorn, Lawrence, Bogle or Lowe. And we looked better. You can do it without Bielik and Rooney. You can do it if you're Barrow and Reading and Luton (see their best chances)

We don't do it enough. We haven't done it enough. And that is the criticism of Cocu. Not that he's not a magician

Adapt it to what though?

I see plenty of people complaining that he's not "making the most of what he's got" but  I don't think anyone has ever actually come up with a viable alternate plan for what  we could change, saying why they think it would work or most importantly how the players we have available are suited to playing it. 

Seriously, what is this mythical style of play 

You point out that we played well in the second half (it wasn't just the second half, we started well and if Rooney wasn't incapable of scoring from open play could have taken the lead)  without Waghorn, Lawrence, Bogle or Lowe... but we did have Byrne & Jozwiak!

That's 2 key players we've not previously had the benefit of using  who were big factors in a lot of the positive attacking play - Rooney quickly switching play to Byrne, Jozwiak running with the ball, and off it, his strength to hold it up for Marriott - especially when we put Jozwiak on the left for some better balance, and so he and Byrne weren't getting in each others way (my only real criticism of how we set up yesterday, which I brought up during the game)

 

I can't be arsed to type any more on this damn phone,  so I'll just leave it there 

[MikeS]

13 hours ago, IslandExile said:

Blimey, the Cocu beaters are out in force today, eh?

How many different threads can they generate?

Now that time is slowly starting to heal the Chris Martin wound, every thread has someone twisting it to blame Cocu.

Covid will be his fault soon.

And before anyone starts bleating about having a "different opinion to mine", that's fine but please construct an argument and post it - once is enough.

There's been the same "ponderous, sideways passing" cliche spewed out again today. Simply not the case. Watch the game. Derby were much improved, more offensive, more up tempo and lost because of a couple of defensive mistakes.

I hear what you say Exile, and while it is not time for any change just yet, let's also wait and see what happens in the next month.

There was improvement yesterday, mainly in the one half, compared to a general decline in performances over a long period of time.

[atherstoneram]

4 minutes ago, MikeS said:

I hear what you say Exile, and while it is not time for any change just yet, let's also wait and see what happens in the next month.

There was improvement yesterday, mainly in the one half, compared to a general decline in performances over a long period of time.

So what you are saying is, if there is no improvement in the next month it's time for him to go, i very much doubt that will happen, for a start there will be the remainder of a 4 year contract MM will have to pay. You need to get used to Cocu being here 

[Alph]

10 minutes ago, Coconut said:

Adapt it to what though?

I see plenty of people complaining that he's not "making the most of what he's got" but  I don't think anyone has ever actually come up with a viable alternate plan for what  we could change, saying why they think it would work or most importantly how the players we have available are suited to playing it. 

Seriously, what is this mythical style of play 

You point out that we played well in the second half (it wasn't just the second half, we started well and if Rooney wasn't incapable of scoring from open play could have taken the lead)  without Waghorn, Lawrence, Bogle or Lowe... but we did have Byrne & Jozwiak!

That's 2 key players we've not previously had the benefit of using  who were big factors in a lot of the positive attacking play - Rooney quickly switching play to Byrne, Jozwiak running with the ball, and off it, his strength to hold it up for Marriott - especially when we put Jozwiak on the left for some better balance, and so he and Byrne weren't getting in each others way (my only real criticism of how we set up yesterday, which I brought up during the game)

 

I can't be arsed to type any more on this damn phone,  so I'll just leave it there 

See my other post in the thread

I was quite happy with the 2nd half yesterday because it's exactly what I want us to do and I think we need to do. 

We did it with players missing. Barrow did it to us. Luton did it to us and Reading too. If teams with lesser budgets and lower leagues can do it to us then we can do it. We did do it. And we looked better. 

As I said, the stats from last season show us to be the least creative team who keeps the ball the most. Lowest crosses, ball in final third. It's in my previous post. 

There was a ball over the top to Marriott yesterday that cut out about 20 passes. Now I know that's the McCarthy philosophy and I don't want that. But there's still a place in football for putting the ball in dangerous areas and pressuring the ball. And we've seen crap players get promoted doing it. 

Until we have the players to turn on a 50p and thread the ball through a 5 man midfield then I think we should be adapting to uglier tactics. Not all the way! He's clearly good at organising a possession side. Stick a few balls like that Marriott one in and you watch teams back off and leave space for our midfield to step up

[IslandExile]

25 minutes ago, MikeS said:

I hear what you say Exile, and while it is not time for any change just yet, let's also wait and see what happens in the next month.

There was improvement yesterday, mainly in the one half, compared to a general decline in performances over a long period of time.

There are reasons for that "decline". We are rebuilding. We are building for sustainable success in the future. That takes time, certainly longer than "another month".

iPad generation: "I want it and I want it now".

[May Contain Nuts]

...but

15 minutes ago, Alpha said:

There was a ball over the top to Marriott yesterday that cut out about 20 passes. Now I know that's the McCarthy philosophy and I don't want that. But there's still a place in football for putting the ball in dangerous areas and pressuring the ball. And we've seen crap players get promoted doing it. 

FWIW I agree with you, we should mix it up more in that way. There's a place for it. 

...but aside from Marriott (who isn't often likely to keep hold of the ball for 2-3 seconds after reaching the punt over the top) we don't really have the type of striker who can make that run in behind.

Maybe we started playing that ball because his teammates have only now got used to playing with him after a run of games? It's not like Marriott has ever really had a run in the team with these players around him before, and now it looks like he won't be getting another due to yet another long term injury.

It's less the quality of player and more the type of player imo.  Reading could do it to us because they've got Lucas Jaoa, Barrow could do it to us because they had that pacey striker. I don't actually recall Luton hitting it long particularly

There'd have been no use doing it last season with Martin as the striker, so it's probably not something we've really seen as an option.

[BondJovi]

Step one was getting the off the field stuff sorted. At this point our squad is probably as small as it has been since the second season of Clough. I see this as the bottom point of which we build from and signings this season so far have all enhanced our team, we just need more.

4 players I would regard as starters are not available to the manager. It has been incredibly difficult for Cocu to even pick a regular side. We all saw what happened when Kuqi was replaced with Moore or when Mac1 lost Martin to injury. And that is just the difference one player can make.

Young players will have changes in form quite often. That can be covered if it is only a couple in the team, but 4 young players starting...a big ask.

Progress is not always a straight upwards line. Lawrence had his best season for us.  I think Waghorn was  better than his first season. Holmes was magnificent post Christmas. None of our key players have regressed, they are just injured!

The only thing that worries me about Cocu is that so far he has had no luck. He is long overdue some good fortune but yesterday again showed it isn't on his side. I hope he isn't just cursed in this job because I believe once we get everything together we will be a joy to watch and enjoy. Until then I expect it to be hard going. Ask again in late November. 

[Alph]

3 hours ago, Coconut said:

...but

FWIW I agree with you, we should mix it up more in that way. There's a place for it. 

...but aside from Marriott (who isn't often likely to keep hold of the ball for 2-3 seconds after reaching the punt over the top) we don't really have the type of striker who can make that run in behind.

Maybe we started playing that ball because his teammates have only now got used to playing with him after a run of games? It's not like Marriott has ever really had a run in the team with these players around him before, and now it looks like he won't be getting another due to yet another long term injury.

It's less the quality of player and more the type of player imo.  Reading could do it to us because they've got Lucas Jaoa, Barrow could do it to us because they had that pacey striker. I don't actually recall Luton hitting it long particularly

There'd have been no use doing it last season with Martin as the striker, so it's probably not something we've really seen as an option.

That ball to Marriott was only one example though. The width of the team was much better. Giving options for the midfield to release full backs and wide players with passes behind opposition full backs. 

It was so much better than the persistent to feet football with every pass and every player in front of the our opponents defence

[May Contain Nuts]

24 minutes ago, Alpha said:

That ball to Marriott was only one example though. The width of the team was much better. Giving options for the midfield to release full backs and wide players with passes behind opposition full backs. 

It was so much better than the persistent to feet football with every pass and every player in front of the our opponents defence

Because the players suited 

Pulling teeth, can't be arsed.