Have we progressed under Cocu?

[Chris_Martin]

Genuine question. Have we actually made much (if any) progress under Cocu?

i appreciate what hes done for our young players and what he had to put up with when he first took the job. However, in terms of playing style and results etc, are we actually any better than when he first took the job over a year ago now. Whats peoples opinions?

[Steve How Hard?]

Just now, Chris_Martin said:

Genuine question. Have we actually made much (if any) progress under Cocu?

i appreciate what hes done for our young players and what he had to put up with when he first took the job. However, in terms of playing style and results etc, are we actually any better than when he first took the job over a year ago now. Whats peoples opinions?

We've regressed since you left Chrissy. Please come home. 

[Andicis]

Difficult to answer question. The overall health of the club has definitely improved, we've cut the fat from the squad, made some money from player sales and made our wage bill much more manageable. For a multitude of reasons, we're not making great strides forwards on the pitch, but we at least are building the ground work to make that happen.

We've had our most positive transfer window in a long time. 

[Gritstone Ram]

No

[Ramarena]

Just now, Chris_Martin said:

Genuine question. Have we actually made much (if any) progress under Cocu?

i appreciate what hes done for our young players and what he had to put up with when he first took the job. However, in terms of playing style and results etc, are we actually any better than when he first took the job over a year ago now. Whats peoples opinions?

What objectives are you judging him by?

[Tyler Durden]

Tell me what the metrics you're judging progress by then I'll be able to answer you 

[Chris_Martin]

7 minutes ago, Ramarena said:

What objectives are you judging him by?

"owever, in terms of playing style and results etc, are we actually any better than when he first took the job over a year ago now."

[IslandExile]

Blimey, the Cocu beaters are out in force today, eh?

How many different threads can they generate?

Now that time is slowly starting to heal the Chris Martin wound, every thread has someone twisting it to blame Cocu.

Covid will be his fault soon.

And before anyone starts bleating about having a "different opinion to mine", that's fine but please construct an argument and post it - once is enough.

There's been the same "ponderous, sideways passing" cliche spewed out again today. Simply not the case. Watch the game. Derby were much improved, more offensive, more up tempo and lost because of a couple of defensive mistakes.

[Chris_Martin]

6 minutes ago, Tyler Durden said:

Tell me what the metrics you're judging progress by then I'll be able to answer you 

"owever, in terms of playing style and results etc, are we actually any better than when he first took the job over a year ago now."

[IslandExile]

10 minutes ago, Ramarena said:

What objectives are you judging him by?

So you said...

2 minutes ago, Chris_Martin said:

"owever, in terms of playing style and results etc, are we actually any better than when he first took the job over a year ago now."

But why not remember what else you said.....

12 minutes ago, Chris_Martin said:

i appreciate what hes done for our young players and what he had to put up with when he first took the job.

So you forget part of your own argument in order to advance the criticism of Cocu.

[Day]

7 minutes ago, Chris_Martin said:

"owever, in terms of playing style and results etc, are we actually any better than when he first took the job over a year ago now."

Are we ignoring any context in this, for example Tomori, Mount and Wilson leaving, Lampard's late departure, the incident at Joiners Arms, Beliik ACL, being under embargo with the EFL, starting this season with Bielik, Lawrence, Holmes and Waghorn out injured?

[Chris_Martin]

4 minutes ago, IslandExile said:

Blimey, the Cocu beaters are out in force today, eh?

How many different threads can they generate?

Now that time is slowly starting to heal the Chris Martin wound, every thread has someone twisting it to blame Cocu.

Covid will be his fault soon.

And before anyone starts bleating about having a "different opinion to mine", that's fine but please construct an argument and post it - once is enough.

There's been the same "ponderous, sideways passing" cliche spewed out again today. Simply not the case. Watch the game. Derby were much improved, more offensive, more up tempo and lost because of a couple of defensive mistakes.

Actually, i am not against Cocu. My point is hes been at the club over a year now and i am still not sure if hes actually good or not. just wanted peoples opinions if their happy with him?

[Millenniumram]

Depends what you mean by progressed. If you measure using the obvious league table metric, then we’ve clearly “regressed”. But I don’t think that’s fair, as with everything that happened off the pitch last season, 10th place was actually an achievement. Whereas with the squad Lampard had, a top 6 finish was really the expectation. 

In terms of performances, it’s a tough one. I think we’ve definitely got better at retaining possession, and we’ve got a lot more confident at playing out the back. That’s particularly evident in certain individuals, like Clarke and arguably Lawrence last season. But there’s areas that still haven’t improved. We’re still lacking tempo for large parts of games. Still lacking creativity and proper attacking threat. And we STILL can’t defend a cross. It’s the lack of improvements in those areas, a year into the job, that gives me doubts about Cocu long term. However, lack of quality in the squad can excuse much of the above. If we don’t improve once new players arrive, that’s when things will be really worrying.

[Chris_Martin]

1 minute ago, David said:

Are we ignoring any context in this, for example Tomori, Mount and Wilson leaving, Lampard's late departure, the incident at Joiners Arms, Beliik ACL, being under embargo with the EFL, starting this season with Lawrence, Holmes and Waghorn out injured?

no sorry i am saying since Cocu has been at the club have we made progress (on the pitch)? 

[europia]

Considering Philip has pretty much had the 5hitty end of the stick since he took the job on, he's probably coping as well as anyone else could. 

Obviously it's results that managers are judged on, and some folk will only look at that. Otherwise, the chairman is more aware than anyone, of the circumstances and constraints that Cocu has been operating within, and will surely take that into consideration, moving forward.

[IslandExile]

Just now, Chris_Martin said:

Actually, i am not against Cocu. My point is hes been at the club over a year now and i am still not sure if hes actually good or not. just wanted peoples opinions if their happy with him?

In your original post, you mentioned what he had to put up with last season. This season he's had a transfer embargo and the majority of the forward players have been injured.

Do you not think all of that context makes any judgment of progress too early, at the very least, or I would argue extremely harsh?

Your topic is adding to others that are there to pick fault with Cocu, irrespective of context.

I don't mind those posters that express doubts about Cocu or his tactics, fair enough, but please consider all of the circumstances.

[roboto]

With the players we have out at the moment and not being able to sign key players due to the embargo in place in The January window and at the start of this window, you have to think that this is just another rough patch.

We will have a good spell soon and hopefully continue to improve as the new and young players gain more experience with the team.

We’ve played some good matches with Cocu in charge, but at the moment the team aren’t quite clicking.

[Ramarena]

17 minutes ago, Chris_Martin said:

"owever, in terms of playing style and results etc, are we actually any better than when he first took the job over a year ago now."

I’ll list pros and cons

Pros

- significantly lowered the wagebill and removed a lot of deadwood from the team

- Integrated some very promising youngsters into the team

- Finished top ten whilst under an embargo and all with the joinersgate fall out, etc.

- Had a very promising run of form last season till injuries, loss of form, Covid became too much.

- Recruitment seems to have improved looking at Byrne and Kamil which you could argue are the first proper Cocu buys and show us the types of players he wants to bring in.

 Cons

- Style of football in large parts hasn’t been what we would like (although I think this isn’t the style he wants to play as we saw 2nd half today)

- Finished our of the playoffs (if you don’t take last seasons traumas into account)

- Defensive lapses still very evident

- Not threatening enough when we attack as present

- Mixed bag of results 

I think he had a really tough season last year and did ok.

Happy to give him this season as well unless we are relegation threatened. He needs to bring in his own players, when he does I think the style will improve along with the results. 

I think if we get a new striker along with the two new signings and injured players returning we are going to see an improvement 

[Cisse]

I'm happy with Cocu's work considering the cards he was handed. The way he has gotten our youngsters in the team is nicely done. With our squad though I can't see us achieving much before we get some more talent to the team. It would be good to get a solid goal scorer.

[Day]

12 minutes ago, Chris_Martin said:

no sorry i am saying since Cocu has been at the club have we made progress (on the pitch)? 

I hear you, but there has been a lot of incidents and issues for Cocu to deal with since he has arrived where it's a little unfair to be comparing like for like on previous seasons and asking this question.

He arrived late at the club due to Lampard's delayed departure, pre season was short and hampered by injuries and weather, we also lost 3 key players as they returned to their parent clubs, shortly after he loses Keogh who is sacked due to the injury and Lawrence and Bennett also involved, Bielik did his ACL to top that off.

In the one summer he's had to really work with the squad we've been under embargo so haven't been able to put his stamp on the team, we've started the season with Bielik still out injured and missing 2 forwards in Lawrence and Waghorn, Martin chose to leave the club.

These are not excuses, just facts, facts that many managers would have struggled to cope with, so he deserves time before this kind of question is asked.