Lampard vs. Cocu

[Mostyn6]

3 minutes ago, JustOneChrissyMartin said:

Kevin De Bruyne wasn’t the best midfielder in the world at Chelsea, so they didn’t lose him.

crass comparison comparing loanees to a player given away on the cheap, but crack on.

[LeedsCityRam]

38 minutes ago, Mostyn6 said:

I'm not having the quality of Lampard's time here disrespected off the back of his disappointing behaviour upon leaving.

Clearly Cocu is a very studious and sensible manager, however Lampard had some divine inspiration, and Leeds away is something that comes around every 20 years, and I doubt very much that a Cocu-led Derby could find that tempo, intensity and inspiration.

Cocu is effective, in the same way Clement was, and whilst we are on a good run, it remains to be seen how we fare against the teams above us in the coming weeks.

Also, whilst we had 3 young loanees last season, they weren't always effective. Nowhere near as effective as having Rooney has been.

a) I dont think anyone is disrespecting Lampard. The thread is to discuss comparisons and differences given their records are so similar 

b) it is utterly nonsensical to suggest having Wilson (15 goals, 3 assists), Mount (8 goals, 4 assists) and Tomori (11 clean sheets, 1 goal, 1 assist) for a full season was less effective than Rooney for half a season

c) Describing Cocu's football as 'effective' is the kind of back handed disrespect we'd use for a Neil Warnock or Allardyce side. We play good football..just because you were clamouring for his departure in December doesnt change that fact.

d) by describing Leeds away as a 'once in a 20 years' occurence or a piece of divine inspiration shows a serious misreading of history. We put them in their place for a few days then failed again at Wembley. I was there that night but that result ultimately counted for nowt.

[Ramslad1992]

35 minutes ago, JustOneChrissyMartin said:

Kevin De Bruyne wasn’t the best midfielder in the world at Chelsea, so they didn’t lose him.

Dont forget Salah too ?

[Gisby]

30 minutes ago, LeedsCityRam said:

a) I dont think anyone is disrespecting Lampard. The thread is to discuss comparisons and differences given their records are so similar 

b) it is utterly nonsensical to suggest having Wilson (15 goals, 3 assists), Mount (8 goals, 4 assists) and Tomori (11 clean sheets, 1 goal, 1 assist) for a full season was less effective than Rooney for half a season

c) Describing Cocu's football as 'effective' is the kind of back handed disrespect we'd use for a Neil Warnock or Allardyce side. We play good football..just because you were clamouring for his departure in December doesnt change that fact.

d) by describing Leeds away as a 'once in a 20 years' occurence or a piece of divine inspiration shows a serious misreading of history. We put them in their place for a few days then failed again at Wembley. I was there that night but that result ultimately counted for nowt.

ABSOLUTELY ....... well said my friend ..... I was in the process of composing a response myself but you’ve just saved me the trouble ???

[Brammie Steve]

To quote Frank Sinatra when asked if he preferred singing to acting.

'That's like asking whether I prefer steak or ice cream!'

Lampard or Cocu?

Both excellent in their own way.

Do I prefer today's young Rams with Rooney or Lampard's lads of last season?

I like both but by the end of the season it was clear that neither Lampard nor the all-stars (Mount, Wilson, Tomori) were ever going to be long-term fixtures at our club.

The current squad, on the other hand, are here for the long haul marathon rather than the sprint.

Cocu is building a solid team with some amazing emerging talent.

Sibley and Bird are just the start!

[Alph]

I enjoyed Lampard's season more. There were a handful of amazing games and the team spirit and togetherness was visible. It felt special. Tomori and Mount are my favourite loanees ever too. 

But looking at what Cocu has had to deal with makes his record here more impressive than Lampard's. Right from the late arrival in Florida and not even being able to meet staff at Moor Farm and settle in the City it's been chaos. Manager of Derby before seeing Derby. A late Pre Season disrupted by weather. Then all the obvious distractions. Even things like Ramage upsetting Bogle and Lowe etc is just negativity to deal with. 

Plus I feel he's prepared better for the long term.

Been two very different journeys to those remarkable stats Lampard and Cocu share. 

Still feel a bit betrayed by Lampard or I'd maybe give even more praise. Not betrayed because he went to Chelsea but because somebody, somewhere didn't make decisions quicker and Lampard (if not the person holding it all up) could have hurried things along so that players didn't come back to training without a coaching team. 

One thing I do miss about Lampard is the team had an extra attacking gear compared to this one. 

[RamNut]

We can’t yet write the history of this season, but it was pretty flat until the last ten games.

we were poor in the cups going out 3-0 in both competitions.

the season didn’t really spark into life until the 4-0 home win over stoke. Prior to k.o. we were 16th and 10 points off the play offs.  Since then there have really only been two disappointing performances and results - the away defeats to Bristol city and qpr. at that point it didn’t seem that we had the required quality or desire as we sat 14th and 11 points off the play offs. But the introduction of wisdom at centre back, with Rooney dropping deeper alongside bird, And an attacking no 10, changed both performances and results and everything clicked. the really good stuff has been just the last 5 games. 5 consecutive wins and we now sit 7th having ultimately matched Franks record after 40 games. 
 

the 2018-19 season was brighter from the off. We won at Man Utd and Southampton in the cups. We had memorable away Wins at Norwich and West Brom. We finished strongly with 14 points from the last 6 games and then produced one of the truly great / legendary performances by stuffing Leeds away in the play offs. The final was a damp squib with frank already seemingly distracted by Sarri’s impending departure from some club in west London. 

The emergence of the academy players and the quality of our play in possession is now a joy to behold.
We are scheduled to play 5 of the top 6 in the last 6 games. Effectively the play offs start now.
Can we do it? Who knows?  But it is a most welcome and unexpected bonus at the end of the season and we have put ourselves in with a shout.

[Jourdan]

Ask me again this time next year.

I think it’s hard to get enamored with our managers and their relative success here because they don’t tend to stick around for very long.

I can’t really remember the last time I felt really glad to have someone as our manager and really invested in the journey they were taking us on.

Lampard probably would have been our most popular manager since Jim Smith if he had stayed on, committed to the cause, and given it absolutely everything to succeed. 

Instead, with him leaving so abruptly and acrimoniously, I don’t see much to separate him from the other four or five managers that have tried and failed to get us promoted in the recent past.

So Cocu will do so much for his standing and reputation amongst the fans by simply staying put and getting stuck into the project and seeing through some of his aims.

I think that is what fans really respond to - seeing commitment from the manager and seeing evolution of the team. Think of Burley turning the tide and building a wonderful team in spite of the terrible ownership. Think of McClaren and the team staying together and trying to bounce back from Wembley heartache.

In terms of performance, Lampard underachieved given the resources available. It was a fun ride but a better manager would have got more out of that group of players. 

As for Cocu, it remains to be seen. It’s been a season of two halves. We massively underachieved in the first half, and now we are overachieving in the second half. The next nine games could see him achieve hero status already.

Whatever happens, Cocu just needs to stick with us and take the time to make his mark. If he can do that, people will grow to love him even more than Lampard.

[Ghost of Clough]

A comparison over the season. Cocu's done exceptionally well to draw level at this point in the season. I'll be even more impressed if we're still level in 6 games time - we picked up 14 points from an available 18 under Lampard.

[ramsbottom]

15 hours ago, Van der MoodHoover said:

We've had loanees. Mostly carp, but Matt Clarke has been pretty much a mainstay for us.

I think we'd have to give credit to Rosinier for that one.  

It is quite spooky how similar both their records are so far.  Lampard's iffy spell came in the new year, whereas Cocu's was pretty much at the start of the season.

Anybody questioning the impact the 3 loans had on our results last season only has to look at them when Mount or Wilson were injured.  They pretty much fell off a cliff.

[LeedsCityRam]

2 hours ago, Jourdan said:

Ask me again this time next year.

I think it’s hard to get enamored with our managers and their relative success here because they don’t tend to stick around for very long.

I can’t really remember the last time I felt really glad to have someone as our manager and really invested in the journey they were taking us on.

Lampard probably would have been our most popular manager since Jim Smith if he had stayed on, committed to the cause, and given it absolutely everything to succeed. 

Instead, with him leaving so abruptly and acrimoniously, I don’t see much to separate him from the other four or five managers that have tried and failed to get us promoted in the recent past.

So Cocu will do so much for his standing and reputation amongst the fans by simply staying put and getting stuck into the project and seeing through some of his aims.

I think that is what fans really respond to - seeing commitment from the manager and seeing evolution of the team. Think of Burley turning the tide and building a wonderful team in spite of the terrible ownership. Think of McClaren and the team staying together and trying to bounce back from Wembley heartache.

In terms of performance, Lampard underachieved given the resources available. It was a fun ride but a better manager would have got more out of that group of players. 

As for Cocu, it remains to be seen. It’s been a season of two halves. We massively underachieved in the first half, and now we are overachieving in the second half. The next nine games could see him achieve hero status already.

Whatever happens, Cocu just needs to stick with us and take the time to make his mark. If he can do that, people will grow to love him even more than Lampard.

Good post that.

You're right that the comparisons are getting skewed & harder by having a succession of managers, all of whom nearly get us promoted but not quite. We've had McClaren, Rowett, Lampard and now Cocu. You could even put Clement in with them given where he had the team on his departure.

On Friday, Cocu celebrates 1 year in charge of Derby County & that's something I'm actually celebrating - the last time one of our managers celebrated an anniversary in charge was 2014. That's how utterly chaotic these last few years have been & probably underpins why a significant section of our fanbase (including myself) are so keen to give Cocu as much time as he needs to get success. The signs are there now (and I accept they weren't in December) but to answer your point in the last paragraph, I would be very surprised if having done a lot of the upfront hard work, Cocu wanted to walk away from this project anytime soon.

[Ghost of Clough]

12 minutes ago, LeedsCityRam said:

Good post that.

You're right that the comparisons are getting skewed & harder by having a succession of managers, all of whom nearly get us promoted but not quite. We've had McClaren, Rowett, Lampard and now Cocu. You could even put Clement in with them given where he had the team on his departure.

On Friday, Cocu celebrates 1 year in charge of Derby County & that's something I'm actually celebrating - the last time one of our managers celebrated an anniversary in charge was 2014. That's how utterly chaotic these last few years have been & probably underpins why a significant section of our fanbase (including myself) are so keen to give Cocu as much time as he needs to get success. The signs are there now (and I accept they weren't in December) but to answer your point in the last paragraph, I would be very surprised if having done a lot of the upfront hard work, Cocu wanted to walk away from this project anytime soon.

Lampard - May '18 to July '19
Rowett - March '17 to May '18

The crazy stat is only Clough and Burley have completed 2 full seasons since Smith departed.

[RadioactiveWaste]

Last season was fun, the most fun a season has been since the innocent rise of 13/14. It was a charismatic roller coaster.

This season has mostly not been fun, and it's taken a long ass time to develop a playing style and make it effective but it is starting to bare fruit.

I'm on board for this continuing to get better. I don't think we're ever going to be a gung ho caviler side under Cocu but if yesterday's first half is the norm I'm up for that. 

[Topram]

Loved having Lampard loved having players like Mount Wilson and Tomori but I prefer making our own players better Bird Sibley etc it’s better for us as a club by far. 

both Lampard  and Cocu are very respected and are very classy people just with what’s been thrown at Cocu and his staff they’ve dealt with it so professional no moaning nothing just got on with the job and it’s starting to pay off, fair play to Mel also not worrying when we were near the drop zone and sacking him, it’s a long term appointment which I’m confident will lead to us being a premier league club again 

[LeedsCityRam]

29 minutes ago, Ghost of Clough said:

Lampard - May '18 to July '19
Rowett - March '17 to May '18

The crazy stat is only Clough and Burley have completed 2 full seasons since Smith departed.

Yeah, should have clarified a year in charge & not likely to leave anytime soon. Lampard was already on a pathway to Chelsea around his 1st year anniversary & whilst Rowett had 2 months longer, he'd already turned down Stoke once/been bought off with a better contract (after 9 months in charge) before eventually joining them.

Should also make clear Cocu's first anniversary with us is Sunday not Friday (thought it was Tuesday today for some reason)

Other than that, a great post from me ?

[Van der MoodHoover]

5 hours ago, LeedsCityRam said:

Yeah, should have clarified a year in charge & not likely to leave anytime soon. Lampard was already on a pathway to Chelsea around his 1st year anniversary & whilst Rowett had 2 months longer, he'd already turned down Stoke once/been bought off with a better contract (after 9 months in charge) before eventually joining them.

Should also make clear Cocu's first anniversary with us is Sunday not Friday (thought it was Tuesday today for some reason)

Other than that, a great post from me ?

So many assertions, so many inaccuracies. 

You are Toddyfacts and I claim my £5....?

[Steve How Hard?]

22 hours ago, Mucker1884 said:

Actually... reading my post back... I suppose I should just clarify that... erm... he didn't exactly approach me.  It was more "He tried to back away, wondering who the duck is this in my face"... but he did shake my hand. 

...He had very little choice, seeing as there were kids about, and he had to remain calm and polite!  ?

Looks like the lock down came at the perfect time for you. It must have helped you comply with the restraining order that PC put out on you. 

[europia]

For me the main thing is, I never for a minute thought that Frank was a long term appointment (nor did Mel I suspect). I was ecstatic when I heard that Cocu was replacing Lampard, and felt sure he would be in it for the log haul. Which is just what the club needed!

[Archied]

On 01/07/2020 at 21:30, Mostyn6 said:

I'm not having the quality of Lampard's time here disrespected off the back of his disappointing behaviour upon leaving.

Clearly Cocu is a very studious and sensible manager, however Lampard had some divine inspiration, and Leeds away is something that comes around every 20 years, and I doubt very much that a Cocu-led Derby could find that tempo, intensity and inspiration.

Cocu is effective, in the same way Clement was, and whilst we are on a good run, it remains to be seen how we fare against the teams above us in the coming weeks.

Also, whilst we had 3 young loanees last season, they weren't always effective. Nowhere near as effective as having Rooney has been.

I was behind lampard from the minute he was rumoured and enjoyed his time here but he soured it for me with his lack of class at the end ,Leeds Play off away was the most I have enjoyed a game for years and was a moment that will live long but let’s not pretend that it was a master class by lampard , injury during the game forced his hand and it was one of those nights where the gods conspire to give us a proper treat , ( rare these days for Derby more often conspire to kick us in the nuts) massive atmosphere ,odds stacked against us , mistake by Leeds defence and the rest is history, Frank bouncing with the fans is stuff of legends but then it went to amateur night , players out on the lash with the Upcoming Wembley final lost in the Rush to celebrate beating Leeds which though a great night was only half the job, then the damp squib Wembley final with the rowett esc team selection and perhaps a manager with his eye on the chelsea move ,

no , give me Phil any day of the week

[David]

I’m one of the lucky ones, I like them both and it’s great to see things are working out for Frank at Chelsea. 

I feared for him a bit, but with quality additions they should be able to push on further next year.

Equally confident that we will also push on next year, when you look at our form since Rooney’s arrival, imagine a full season...