cannable Posted February 18, 2020 Share Posted February 18, 2020 22 minutes ago, TramRam said: I have to admit i'm with Dethorn on this, People today are very easily offended, The use of a faux pas as a reason to fight back, Maybe it's an age thing, I'm well into my 2nd half of life, Social media and the thought police have a vice like grip on life where the many can be offended, Where in days gone by a phttt would surfice or some good old fashioned Anglo Saxon language would be enough for the instigator to move along. I remember being de bagged at 16 years old at work, Today it would be sexual assault, Getting a quik feel from the girls at school at 14-15 years old again sexual assault, Being thumped, Slippered, Caned by the headmaster at school physical assault, Getting a back hander from the local OB for being cheeky...he would be sacked today, Scrumping and being chased by the owner and caught and thumped...a trip to the Police station and maybe a court case today...Plus many many more instances from yesteryear. We dont live in Orwellian times as of yet, We're on that slippery slope but not at the end yet, There will be tons of quotes, Quips, Misspokes, Faux Pas's that will be taken to the limit by those who may not have been brought up in the 60s 70s and find it their duty to report...all because they're offended, Or they will report because it may enhance their job description or just that they like to be the one who hopes to become the savior. As for Dethorns comments on football he's right imo, Todays game is going down the pan for lack of honesty and chicanery and where cheats do prosper. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ariotofmyown Posted February 18, 2020 Share Posted February 18, 2020 12 minutes ago, TramRam said: I have to admit i'm with Dethorn on this, People today are very easily offended, The use of a faux pas as a reason to fight back, Maybe it's an age thing, I'm well into my 2nd half of life, Social media and the thought police have a vice like grip on life where the many can be offended, Where in days gone by a phttt would surfice or some good old fashioned Anglo Saxon language would be enough for the instigator to move along. I remember being de bagged at 16 years old at work, Today it would be sexual assault, Getting a quik feel from the girls at school at 14-15 years old again sexual assault, Being thumped, Slippered, Caned by the headmaster at school physical assault, Getting a back hander from the local OB for being cheeky...he would be sacked today, Scrumping and being chased by the owner and caught and thumped...a trip to the Police station and maybe a court case today...Plus many many more instances from yesteryear. We dont live in Orwellian times as of yet, We're on that slippery slope but not at the end yet, There will be tons of quotes, Quips, Misspokes, Faux Pas's that will be taken to the limit by those who may not have been brought up in the 60s 70s and find it their duty to report...all because they're offended, Or they will report because it may enhance their job description or just that they like to be the one who hopes to become the savior. As for Dethorns comments on football he's right imo, Todays game is going down the pan for lack of honesty and chicanery and where cheats do prosper. Sounds like you have been treated reasonably fairly then for the accepted social norms at the time. Might be a different story for the boy who was repeatedly sodomised by the randy PE teacher, or the scared girl who was constantly groped by those cheeky boys much older than her, or the black kid who was constantly stopped and search by the friendly racist local bobby who turned a blind eye when some local lads kicked the kids head in for dating a white girl, or the gay lad who was forced to live through years of taunting and abuse for being different until he tried to kill himself. This sort of stuff used to happen back in the glory days of which you speak. Clearly you and many other people would not condone this sort of behaviour but it all happened and no one did much about it. If a slight downside to trying to prevent this sort of thing means a few people feel they can't be quite as open in how they speak to others, or occasionally their language is judged in harsher terms than they might have meant, then this is surely a price worth paying. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CornwallRam Posted February 18, 2020 Share Posted February 18, 2020 2 hours ago, YorkshireRam said: Really wanna comment 'ok boomer' but being facetious probably isn't conducive to getting my point across... It really isn't hard to not racially profile and when someone makes a mistake of that magnitude in this day and age, I don't have too much sympathy, certainly not enough to be ''sad'' that the affected players rightly spoke up about the incident. It's sad that Ramage lost his job but it's also the correct procedure following an incident which is wholly unacceptable in 2020. How you then manage to move to your problematic opinions on positive discrimination (via completely irrelevant anecdotes) I'm not quite sure but this whole post is a bit of a mess. I do think there is a bit of an age thing in this, so ok boomer might well be appropriate - as well as quite amusing. I think many people brought up in the 70s and before have a different understanding of what racism is. We grew up with the National Front on the streets, apartheid in the news and Roots on the TV. This defined racism, and racists were properly evil. The vast majority of people hated these racists, but watched the Black and White Minstrels and Jim Davidson. They were being entertaining, not racist by the definition that most people accepted. Yet the understanding of what racism is has moved on. It's not just about being appallingly unpleasant to people of colour - and those racist were always very small in number. It's about prejudice and bias. To be prejudiced you need to make judgements about the group, and that's where racial profiling comes in. Once you have decided that black footballers are lazy, it becomes logical to be biased against them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mucker1884 Posted February 18, 2020 Share Posted February 18, 2020 3 minutes ago, bigbadbob said: Bit of a minefield innit Now then... here's a reminder for me... and very much on the "be careful what you say" topic... There we were, me, Muckerette, and our son, who was on the sick, but still serving. 'Twas an H4H shindig at the NEC. Y'know, presentations, various charity stalls, volunteer groups, who to turn to for help, depending on your needs etc. Massive hall. Chocker with squaddie types. A good (bad!) number of 'em with various limbs missing. Wheelchairs, crutches, false legs leaning against the wall next to the brollies etc. We didn't know who to speak to. Which volunteer group to head for. Which leaflets would serve us best. ...She only went and uttered the words "It's a minefield, innit?" Tis as true as the day I was born! Me and son just looked at each other, looked around us, then burst out laughing! Fortunately, the only other in ear shot... a young lad still in uniform, but also legless and in a wheelchair... looked up, cringed, then joined in the laughter! Muckerette still gets upset about it when we have a dig, so keep this under your hats... she won't be at all chuffed I've told you lot! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TramRam Posted February 18, 2020 Share Posted February 18, 2020 2 minutes ago, ariotofmyown said: Sounds like you have been treated reasonably fairly then for the accepted social norms at the time. Might be a different story for the boy who was repeatedly sodomised by the randy PE teacher, or the scared girl who was constantly groped by those cheeky boys much older than her, or the black kid who was constantly stopped and search by the friendly racist local bobby who turned a blind eye when some local lads kicked the kids head in for dating a white girl, or the gay lad who was forced to live through years of taunting and abuse for being different until he tried to kill himself. This sort of stuff used to happen back in the glory days of which you speak. Clearly you and many other people would not condone this sort of behaviour but it all happened and no one did much about it. If a slight downside to trying to prevent this sort of thing means a few people feel they can't be quite as open in how they speak to others, or occasionally their language is judged in harsher terms than they might have meant, then this is surely a price worth paying. They all happened and without doubt more, As historical cases come to light and those put somewhere they'd rather not be, As I said, Maybe it's an age thing, We accepted the social norm back then because it was the norm. Todays normalcy where social media is concerned...it's words, The only words that have done harm is Ready Aim Fire, I'm not on social media so I don't fall into the norm, Might be a good place, Might be a bad place, Not something I'm not fussed about. This message board gives you and I if we use it in the right way a vehicle to post our opinions and that's all they are...opinions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anag Ram Posted February 18, 2020 Share Posted February 18, 2020 6 minutes ago, ariotofmyown said: Sounds like you have been treated reasonably fairly then for the accepted social norms at the time. Might be a different story for the boy who was repeatedly sodomised by the randy PE teacher, or the scared girl who was constantly groped by those cheeky boys much older than her, or the black kid who was constantly stopped and search by the friendly racist local bobby who turned a blind eye when some local lads kicked the kids head in for dating a white girl, or the gay lad who was forced to live through years of taunting and abuse for being different until he tried to kill himself. This sort of stuff used to happen back in the glory days of which you speak. Clearly you and many other people would not condone this sort of behaviour but it all happened and no one did much about it. If a slight downside to trying to prevent this sort of thing means a few people feel they can't be quite as open in how they speak to others, or occasionally their language is judged in harsher terms than they might have meant, then this is surely a price worth paying. I agree of course that the very serious incidents of the past of which you speak must be avoided at all costs. I think where TramRam might be heading is that we have a culture which loves to punish. No one gets a second chance. Education takes second place to the mob baying for blood. There are some instances where ignorance is mistaken for malignancy. I think in these cases we should help the perpetrators to understand why what they have said or done is wrong lest punishment serves only to harden their prejudices or behaviours. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arsene Titman Posted February 18, 2020 Share Posted February 18, 2020 Sportscene was back on Radio Derby tonight but no sign, or mention of, Chris Coles or Ed Dawes (I expect his wife’s name is Erin). The Daily Mail has reported that some BBC big wig has been despatched to Radio Derby to investigate the whole incident, including the deletion of the offending words from the subsequent podcast. I suspect CC/ED may have been suspended. I hope they do not lose their jobs- I accept that Ramage should have been challenged by one or both of them at the time but I fear this may turn into a witch hunt Apologies for the Erin Dawes bit, I couldn’t resist . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Van der MoodHoover Posted February 18, 2020 Share Posted February 18, 2020 1 hour ago, RoyMac5 said: So by not mentioning people's differences we can all pretend they don't exist in case anyone becomes offended by someone talking about them? I just don't think that is the right way to go. If you can't make reference to some physical differences how do you describe anyone accurately? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ariotofmyown Posted February 18, 2020 Share Posted February 18, 2020 15 minutes ago, TramRam said: They all happened and without doubt more, As historical cases come to light and those put somewhere they'd rather not be, As I said, Maybe it's an age thing, We accepted the social norm back then because it was the norm. Todays normalcy where social media is concerned...it's words, The only words that have done harm is Ready Aim Fire, I'm not on social media so I don't fall into the norm, Might be a good place, Might be a bad place, Not something I'm not fussed about. This message board gives you and I if we use it in the right way a vehicle to post our opinions and that's all they are...opinions. I'm with you brother on social media, sounds like a cesspit. The conversation on here is on a much higher plane. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Philmycock Posted February 18, 2020 Share Posted February 18, 2020 8 minutes ago, ariotofmyown said: I'm with you brother on social media, sounds like a cesspit. The conversation on here is on a much higher plane. I for one, will not partake in any interaction on Twitter or Facebook, for some it's a way of life, all consuming, screw that, I'll leave the Bamfords to it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
desirelines Posted February 18, 2020 Share Posted February 18, 2020 What’s going on in this thread then? Oh... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YorkshireRam Posted February 18, 2020 Share Posted February 18, 2020 1 hour ago, RoyMac5 said: Why is this massively insensitive, it's only current 'accepted' cultural norms that suggest there's anything wrong with being a bald woman - should she wear a wig, should she feel stigmatised? I imagine plenty of blonde lads get 'blonde jokes' made about them, maybe best not mention hair colour?! Wouldn't it be better to take offense when offense is meant by the person making the statement? Ha! You fell into my trap, as a blonde lad myself it's honestly water off a duck's back (and very rarely is commented on). I chose that example as one of the only ones I could confirm with any sort of certainty ? And yes, intent always makes a statement more wounding, but this whole thread is around instances where the intention isn't to offend or cause upset, hence my specificity... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RoyMac5 Posted February 18, 2020 Share Posted February 18, 2020 1 hour ago, 86 Schmokes & a Pancake said: Love how some folk on here are so acutely sensitive about their right to be insensitive, yet seemingly completely ambivalent to the feelings of others. There are many who have suffered racist abuse their entire lives so forgive me for thinking that people having to rein in their language and casual observations on other peoples' appearances are not the 'victims' here. How do you know that the people using 'casual language' haven't suffered racist abuse?! There's plenty of examples of 'minorities' abusing the rights of others - you think they'd empathise, but no. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RoyMac5 Posted February 18, 2020 Share Posted February 18, 2020 5 minutes ago, YorkshireRam said: Ha! You fell into my trap, as a blonde lad myself it's honestly water off a duck's back (and very rarely is commented on). I chose that example as one of the only ones I could confirm with any sort of certainty ? So, do blondes have more fun? ?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Comrade 86 Posted February 18, 2020 Share Posted February 18, 2020 4 minutes ago, RoyMac5 said: How do you know that the people using 'casual language' haven't suffered racist abuse?! There's plenty of examples of 'minorities' abusing the rights of others - you think they'd empathise, but no. I don't and that's exactly the point I'm making. But if you are suggesting that majorities suffer more than minorities then I'm afraid I'm going to simply refer you back to my original post. The fact that I'm suggesting that being a tad more thoughtful is not a stretch does not infer in any way that I condone ANY form of discrimination. I find it surprising that I need vocalise that to be honest! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RoyMac5 Posted February 18, 2020 Share Posted February 18, 2020 1 hour ago, ariotofmyown said: If a slight downside to trying to prevent this sort of thing means a few people feel they can't be quite as open in how they speak to others, or occasionally their language is judged in harsher terms than they might have meant, then this is surely a price worth paying. But the two don't necessarily go together do they? Look at where we are and tell me how much better off we all are for all the 'careful language' we have to use. I'm sure it's more to do with how people regard other people, and pulling them up for accidentally saying their best mate is a teeny black bloke is helping no-one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RoyMac5 Posted February 18, 2020 Share Posted February 18, 2020 1 minute ago, 86 Schmokes & a Pancake said: I don't and that's exactly the point I'm making. But if you are suggesting that majorities suffer more than minorities ... I'm not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YorkshireRam Posted February 18, 2020 Share Posted February 18, 2020 50 minutes ago, CornwallRam said: I do think there is a bit of an age thing in this, so ok boomer might well be appropriate - as well as quite amusing. I think many people brought up in the 70s and before have a different understanding of what racism is. We grew up with the National Front on the streets, apartheid in the news and Roots on the TV. This defined racism, and racists were properly evil. The vast majority of people hated these racists, but watched the Black and White Minstrels and Jim Davidson. They were being entertaining, not racist by the definition that most people accepted. Yet the understanding of what racism is has moved on. It's not just about being appallingly unpleasant to people of colour - and those racist were always very small in number. It's about prejudice and bias. To be prejudiced you need to make judgements about the group, and that's where racial profiling comes in. Once you have decided that black footballers are lazy, it becomes logical to be biased against them. This is my understanding as well, micro-aggressions are very obvious to younger people due to us being raised in the culture where they are increasingly being aired. An older demographic, as has been seen, do not generrally assign the same level of importance to these misgivings, hence why there are people then genuinely believe Ramage hasn't done anything wrong, next to folk that are shocked at the level of ignorance in Ramage's comment. That last paragraph is incredibly astute and sums the whole point up nicely. Racism isn't necessarily direct, it can take many forms and most of the examples we see are prejudice-focused rather than explicit attacks. While this is a good thing overall and shows signs of societal progress, it's important to still realise the importance of potentially how hurtful and regressive these prejudicial remarks can be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YorkshireRam Posted February 18, 2020 Share Posted February 18, 2020 5 minutes ago, RoyMac5 said: So, do blondes have more fun? ?? Yeah, but that might just be cos i'm thick ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Comrade 86 Posted February 18, 2020 Share Posted February 18, 2020 1 minute ago, RoyMac5 said: But the two don't necessarily go together do they? Look at where we are and tell me how much better off we all are for all the 'careful language' we have to use. I'm sure it's more to do with how people regard other people and pulling them up for accidentally saying their best mate is a teeny black bloke is helping no-one. With due respect are you really qualified to make that call? I'd politely suggest as someone who is mixed race that perhaps having other people decide what is hurtful and what isn't on my behalf is not terribly helpful, likewise whether moves to try and reduce casual or overt racism are preferable to none at all. That said, if it really bothers you so much mate you crack on as I've a thicker skin than most ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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