Max Lowe Racial Stereotyping

[Sasha]

1 hour ago, Tamworthram said:

Generally a good post except for the two in bold.

1) The issue isn't that he used the colour of a players skin to describe or refer to him (although that would have been similarly unsuitable as it would be unnecessary. Unlike the example you have used, we all know the players, he wouldn't need to describe them). The issue is that he appears to have used inappropriate stereotyping. 

2) Why would anybody need to speak out for the young players that are not black? He didn't say "all young white players have an attitude problem" or something similar. It's not the criticism of players where the issue lies but the fact that he implied the problem related to the colour of their skin.

It was a good post all of it 

[DCFC Ram]

I don't know Ramage in the  slightest. I've never met the bloke.

Other than watching him play for us, my only experience with him has been listening to him on RD.

My impression of him as a voice on RD was that he was a fan first and foremost. My take on him was that he wanted the club to do well; get promoted and the rest.

He obviously has an insight into being a professional footballer that relatively few others do.

From what I heard of him on RD (most, but certainly not all, pre and post matches) I felt that he was the poor man's Robbie Savage.  Rather prone to say the controversial and argumentative thing. I've nothing to say that he was either telling it as he saw it or putting on an act. My guess was that he wasn't putting on an act.

Whilst I didn't think that he was regularly goaded by others from RD on air, he did seem to readily rise to their comments and get involved in banter; a few times I thought that he was somewhat made the butt of it by them.

His tenure included his mangling of words, contradictory comments and regular foray into his views about what he thought were the attitudes, work ethics etc of named players.

From all of this, he came over as being out of his depth on RD and generally not very bright.

That he could have thought that DCFC's young black players share any common attitudinal trait confirms this in my opinion.

 

 

[YorkshireRam]

2 hours ago, Dethorn said:

This entire thread saddens me.

Is it sad that Craig Ramage has said what he has said  ? Sadness wasn't the first emotion when i heard the quote...

Is it sad that he has lost his job ? Yes

Is it sad that some Derby Players have been offended by what he has said ? No, entirely understandable they don't like being racially profiled

Is it sad that you cannot call someone big, short, fat, old, young, black ..........  the list goes on and on; even if it is with nothing more than descriptive intent ? Bit of a false equivalency calling someone 'young' to unfairly singling them out based only on skin colour

Is it sad that Max Lowe feels he has to get involved with this ? No, he did right to speak up

Is it sad that Max's feels he has to speak out for the young black footballers at Derby ? Again no, there was an issue and he responded maturely to it

Is it sad that noone is speaking out for the young footballers who are not black ?  This is stupendously daft 

 

 

 

I needed to speak to "Sarah" (name changed in case any offence would be caused) in the next office at work. I was unsure as to who "Sarah" was - so I asked  "Is she the tiny one?" I was thinking of the girl/woman/female (sorry genuinely unsure which to use there) who is about 4'10" and not over or under weight in my opinion. The look I got was one that could kill - I said "I am sorry - was that offensive? It was not meant to be - I am just trying to work out who you mean"  The response I got was "probably not but it should be!"  IT WASN'T MEANT TO BE I WAS BEING DESCRIPTIVE !!

This is because you subjectively don't perceive 'tiny' to be insulting, someone insecure about their height would see it differently. Think about the reverse, if you said ''Is she the massive one?'' if she was overweight, that'd be fairly inappropriate. A bit of empathy can go a long way.

 

Positive discrimination saddens me - just get the best people in to do the job, do not patronise someone from a minority because it ticks a box.

Things going too far and not being equal sadden me; for example

Alex Scott is frequently on MOTD or general Men's Football programmes because it has to be seen that there is at least one female on the panel. I can live with this, I even understand it a little but because of my fews on positive discrimination above I do not totally agree with it.  I flicked on a women's football match the other day and it was being presented by Gabby Logan (Who I think is possibly the best sports presenter on TV) with 3 more females on the panel and no men. Now is that fair ?

And this is the bit I take true exception to. How do you know the basis upon which Alex Scott was appointed for the role? I happen to think she's an excellent pundit who has earned that spot on merit. She's far better than Keown or Lawrenson. You assuming she's been appointed as an act of tokenism or positive discrimination is pretty insulting when you have nothing to substantiate that claim...

 

Really wanna comment 'ok boomer' but being facetious probably isn't conducive to getting my point across...

It really isn't hard to not racially profile and when someone makes a mistake of that magnitude in this day and age, I don't have too much sympathy, certainly not enough to be ''sad'' that the affected players rightly spoke up about the incident. It's sad that Ramage lost his job but it's also the correct procedure following an incident which is wholly unacceptable in 2020. 

How you then manage to move to your problematic opinions on positive discrimination (via completely irrelevant anecdotes) I'm not quite sure but this whole post is a bit of a mess.

 

[ariotofmyown]

2 hours ago, Dethorn said:

This entire thread saddens me.

Is it sad that Craig Ramage has said what he has said  ? Yes

Is it sad that he has lost his job ? Yes

Is it sad that some Derby Players have been offended by what he has said ? Yes

Is it sad that you cannot call someone big, short, fat, old, young, black ..........  the list goes on and on; even if it is with nothing more than descriptive intent ? Yes

Is it sad that Max Lowe feels he has to get involved with this ? Yes

Is it sad that Max's feels he has to speak out for the young black footballers at Derby ? Yes

Is it sad that noone is speaking out for the young footballers who are not black ?  Yes ( I think Max Bird was criticised too)

A lot of the replies on here sadden me,

 

But things in general (apart from but related too this thread) are saddening me.

This happened to me today

I needed to speak to "Sarah" (name changed in case any offence would be caused) in the next office at work. I was unsure as to who "Sarah" was - so I asked  "Is she the tiny one?" I was thinking of the girl/woman/female (sorry genuinely unsure which to use there) who is about 4'10" and not over or under weight in my opinion. The look I got was one that could kill - I said "I am sorry - was that offensive? It was not meant to be - I am just trying to work out who you mean"  The response I got was "probably not but it should be!"  IT WASN'T MEANT TO BE I WAS BEING DESCRIPTIVE !!

This happened a couple of years ago

I needed to reprimand someone who reported to me for not producing the quantity of work that they should have been. This is after three attempts to see if there is anything that can be done to help. I explained that he/she were not keeping up and that we knew full well that the task we were asking to be completed was definitely not more than one person could achieve in normal working hours. Within 20 minutes I had a complaint lodged against me for bullying, It did not take long for it to be completely quashed, as I had made notes luckily.

Positive discrimination saddens me - just get the best people in to do the job, do not patronise someone from a minority because it ticks a box.

Things going too far and not being equal sadden me; for example

Alex Scott is frequently on MOTD or general Men's Football programmes because it has to be seen that there is at least one female on the panel. I can live with this, I even understand it a little but because of my fews on positive discrimination above I do not totally agree with it.  I flicked on a women's football match the other day and it was being presented by Gabby Logan (Who I think is possibly the best sports presenter on TV) with 3 more females on the panel and no men. Now is that fair ?

 

Not related to this thread but to football more generally

Feigning injury, diving, trying to con the ref, VAR, VAR, VAR,

I am watching more and more Rugby and less and less Football,

Luckily I am in the second half of my life and I am already looking forward to going to watch a Brian Clough team again !!

Sorry for ranting, it was either that or quit the forum and generally I enjoy this forum.

 

 

Do I feel sad for "Sarah"? Yes

Do I think the bullying accuser may have a point considering how wide of the mark your Derby points are? Yes

Did you ever refer to colleagues as the "fat asian one" or the "ugly gypsy one" in purely descriptive terms, then get confused by the reaction you receive? 

[Mucker1884]

I'd love to know what Sarah's real name is... she sound well fit!

[RoyMac5]

24 minutes ago, YorkshireRam said:

This is because you subjectively don't perceive 'tiny' to be insulting, someone insecure about their height would see it differently. Think about the reverse, if you said ''Is she the massive one?'' if she was overweight, that'd be fairly inappropriate. A bit of empathy can go a long way.

So if you'd said 'is that the bald woman' would that be insulting because they perceived being bald as a negative thing? 

[Archied]

9 minutes ago, ariotofmyown said:

Do I feel sad for "Sarah"? Yes

Do I think the bullying accuser may have a point considering how wide of the mark your Derby points are? Yes

Did you ever refer to colleagues as the "fat asian one" or the "ugly gypsy one" in purely descriptive terms, then get confused by the reaction you receive? 

Bit of a stretch ? Bit offensive ? On verge of verbal bullying ? Toe the line or be labelled?

[Rev]

2 hours ago, Dethorn said:

Luckily I am in the second half of my life and I am already looking forward to going to watch a Brian Clough team again !!

Imagine if you got up there, and his team played in Garibaldi.

 

[YorkshireRam]

3 minutes ago, RoyMac5 said:

So if you'd said 'is that the bald woman' would that be insulting because they perceived being bald as a negative thing? 

Bald women aren't all too common and therefore is something they would likely be fairly insecure about; so yeah, if you crassly identified them using a trait you are aware would likely be upsetting when highlighted, it'd be pretty insulting for them wouldn't it?

Outside of them being present, it'd be less inappropriate but even so, really not hard to avoid situations such as these by just having a little consideration for others

Skin colour is always going to be a starkly different matter though because of the connotations often attached. General rule of thumb is don't bring someone's race/skin colour into it, even descriptively. That way there can't be an issue. Simple.

[Jayram]

9 hours ago, IlsonDerby said:

Don’t talk about things you know nothing off. He’s a maths teacher so hardly ‘wrong sort of bloke to be knocking around with’ and he has no reason to lie about it. Stop protecting this country’s reputation at all costs man it’s embarrassing. 
 

we get a lot right over here but also a lot wrong. 

I know plenty about armed policing pal so I can guarantee that no armed response officer has ever pulled a gun on him purely for being Asian. And what does ‘stop protecting this country’s reputation at all costs’ even mean? Are you on drugs?

[RoyMac5]

28 minutes ago, YorkshireRam said:

Bald women aren't all too common and therefore is something they would likely be fairly insecure about; so yeah, if you crassly identified them using a trait you are aware would likely be upsetting when highlighted, it'd be pretty insulting for them wouldn't it?

Outside of them being present, it'd be less inappropriate but even so, really not hard to avoid situations such as these by just having a little consideration for others

Skin colour is always going to be a starkly different matter though because of the connotations often attached. General rule of thumb is don't bring someone's race/skin colour into it, even descriptively. That way there can't be an issue. Simple.

So by not mentioning people's differences we can all pretend they don't exist in case anyone becomes offended by someone talking about them? 

I just don't think that is the right way to go. 

[Archied]

11 minutes ago, RoyMac5 said:

So by not mentioning people's differences we can all pretend they don't exist in case anyone becomes offended by someone talking about them? 

I just don't think that is the right way to go. 

Oooch , your in trouble now boy 

[YorkshireRam]

15 minutes ago, RoyMac5 said:

So by not mentioning people's differences we can all pretend they don't exist in case anyone becomes offended by someone talking about them? 

I just don't think that is the right way to go. 

I knew you were going to try and argue the 2 extremes rather than seeing the obvious middle ground. This isn't about differences, it's about the way we communicate and how to avoid upset. Racial matters will always be more problematic than the trivial differences you keep attempting to highlight. The critical factor is determining how trivial and therefore whether it's appropriate to comment on: skin colour- no, hair colour- yes.

There aren't rules and regulations for this, the easiest thing to do is try and be kind and avoid knowingly making upsetting comments. Going back to the example you gave, if you described a women with alopecia (for example) as ''bald'' to her face, that's massively insensitive; describing someone as ''the blonde lad'' obviously less so. Case by case but there's obviously room between not talking about differences and racial profiling...

[Gisby]

10 hours ago, IlsonDerby said:

Don’t talk about things you know nothing off. He’s a maths teacher so hardly ‘wrong sort of bloke to be knocking around with’ and he has no reason to lie about it. Stop protecting this country’s reputation at all costs man it’s embarrassing. 
 

we get a lot right over here but also a lot wrong. 

I’m from il’son too @IlsonDerby and I can tell you you ain’t doin the rep of the rest of us inhabitants too good. Best let it go on this occasion mate ???

[RoyMac5]

17 minutes ago, YorkshireRam said:

There aren't rules and regulations for this, the easiest thing to do is try and be kind and avoid knowingly making upsetting comments. Going back to the example you gave, if you described a women with alopecia (for example) as ''bald'' to her face, that's massively insensitive; describing someone as ''the blonde lad'' obviously less so. Case by case but there's obviously room between not talking about differences and racial profiling...

Why is this massively insensitive, it's only current 'accepted' cultural norms that suggest there's anything wrong with being a bald woman - should she wear a wig, should she feel stigmatised? I imagine plenty of blonde lads get 'blonde jokes' made about them, maybe best not mention hair colour?! 

Wouldn't it be better to take offense when offense is meant by the person making the statement?

[TramRam]

1 hour ago, ariotofmyown said:

Do I feel sad for "Sarah"? Yes

Do I think the bullying accuser may have a point considering how wide of the mark your Derby points are? Yes

Did you ever refer to colleagues as the "fat asian one" or the "ugly gypsy one" in purely descriptive terms, then get confused by the reaction you receive? 

I have to admit i'm with Dethorn on this, People today are very easily offended, The use of a faux pas as a reason to fight back, Maybe it's an age thing, I'm well into my 2nd half of life, Social media and the thought police have a vice like grip on life where the many can be offended, Where in days gone by a phttt would surfice or some good old fashioned Anglo Saxon language would be enough for the instigator to move along.

I remember being de bagged at 16 years old at work, Today it would be sexual assault, Getting a quik feel from the girls at school at 14-15 years old again sexual assault, Being thumped, Slippered, Caned by the headmaster at school physical assault, Getting a back hander from the local OB for being cheeky...he would be sacked today, Scrumping and being chased by the owner and caught and thumped...a trip to the Police station and maybe a court case today...Plus many many more instances from yesteryear.

We dont live in Orwellian times as of yet, We're on that slippery slope but not at the end yet, There will be tons of quotes, Quips, Misspokes, Faux Pas's that will be taken to the limit by those who may not have been brought up in the 60s 70s and find it their duty to report...all because they're offended, Or they will report because it may enhance their job description or just that they like to be the one who hopes to become the savior.

As for Dethorns comments on football he's right imo, Todays game is going down the pan for lack of honesty and chicanery and where cheats do prosper.

 

[Comrade 86]

Love how some folk on here are so acutely sensitive about their right to be insensitive, yet seemingly completely ambivalent to the feelings of others. There are many who have suffered racist abuse their entire lives so forgive me for thinking that people having to rein in their language and casual observations on other peoples' appearances are not the 'victims' here.

 

 

 

 

[Philmycock]

Hopefully, hurtful people like @ossieram will stop calling me Big Nose or Snoz after this episode

[ossieram]

4 minutes ago, philmycocu said:

Hopefully, hurtful people like @ossieram will stop calling me Big Nose or Snoz after this episode

Not a chance Snoz.

[bigbadbob]

45 minutes ago, YorkshireRam said:

I knew you were going to try and argue the 2 extremes rather than seeing the obvious middle ground. This isn't about differences, it's about the way we communicate and how to avoid upset. Racial matters will always be more problematic than the trivial differences you keep attempting to highlight. The critical factor is determining how trivial and therefore whether it's appropriate to comment on: skin colour- no, hair colour- yes.

There aren't rules and regulations for this, the easiest thing to do is try and be kind and avoid knowingly making upsetting comments. Going back to the example you gave, if you described a women with alopecia (for example) as ''bald'' to her face, that's massively insensitive; describing someone as ''the blonde lad'' obviously less so. Case by case but there's obviously room between not talking about differences and racial profiling...

Bit of a minefield innit