LazloW Posted February 17, 2020 Share Posted February 17, 2020 19 minutes ago, Anag Ram said: The incident was fairly typical of Derby's inability to find their own player with headers. Week after week, the opposition calmly head the ball to feet whilst we seem unable to head it with any direction. It's also fair to say that their left back was about 30 yards from goal when he got the ball and that we made his path to goal pretty easy. Bogle was culpable but only in part. Sticking to football matters for a minute, I agree about our heading ability. I've made similar comments during matches where it seems like our players just see that 'getting their heads on it' is enough, without really caring where it goes. That obviously might be the correct course of action when defending a set peice, but in open play I rarely see any player (apart from Rooney) seemingly trying to find a player woth a header. Ironically, Bogle probably was trying to find somebody with his header, but he fluffed it completely. Something for the coaches to work on with the whole squad I reckon (on his mistake, he isn't the first player to have made one - or be going through a bad patch - he won't be the last.... from my limited vantage point I can't see anythng remotely wrong with his attitude either. Same for the other younger players). I'd read on Twitter before this all blew up that Ramage had been having a pop at Bird. Frankly, that is bizarre. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimbobram Posted February 17, 2020 Share Posted February 17, 2020 1 hour ago, Mucker1884 said: Truly sorry to hear you have experienced racism with our club, but I'm confused... That highlighted bit... or rather the underlined bit... I take it you are still hoping it was a one off? It's just that you said "was hoping", as if there has now been further developments/a second episode? I sincerely hope there hasn't been.. first handed, it has been a one off, thankfully. Confusing probably from the way i've wrote it. I mean generally from our club as a whole. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ramsbottom Posted February 17, 2020 Share Posted February 17, 2020 13 minutes ago, Paul71 said: My initial thoughts were that maybe there would be a second chance of sorts, after a lengthy suspension/education process, but on reflection I do think the right decision was arrived at, I am not sure how there could have been a healthy relationship between Derby and Radio Derby if he had remained. It does make me wonder though how we react to different people. Ramage more than divides opinions, he doesn't seem too popular regardless of this situation, however someone like Eranio is still considered a hero among many Derby fans. I wonder how many people demanding the sacking of ramage cheered when this happened? Eranio appears to have been afforded a second chance, and retains his position with AC Milan although he did lose his job in the media when he made the statement he did. “Black players in the defensive line often make these mistakes because they’re not concentrated,” said Eranio. “They are powerful physically, but when it is time to think … they often make this type of error.” I cant see what the difference is between what he said and what ramage said. I wonder if ramage, not a club legend, will be afforded the same forgiveness as eranio, a club legend to many, from Derby county fans. If he said it whilst employed as an ambassodor of the club, or working as a pundit on Radio Derby, I'd like to think many fans would be disappointed, and demand the same actions. I still appreciate the skill & drive Eranio had whilst wearing our shirt, but he went down in my estimation when he made those comments. Same goes for Dean Saunders dragging Cloughie's name through the mud, for the sake of an after dinner anecdote. Both great players that I can watch highlights of and marvel at what they did, but at the same time, can still call them out for being a tit. Same applies to Ramage, although he isn't exactly a club legend... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ghost of Clough Posted February 17, 2020 Share Posted February 17, 2020 17 minutes ago, Steve How Hard? said: Definitely lasted more than a second. They were still at it as Waghorn made his way back to the halfway line. Waghorn throws his arms at 4:47, by 4:49 his arms are down and he's walking up field. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BathRam72 Posted February 17, 2020 Share Posted February 17, 2020 59 minutes ago, SchtivePesley said: There is a whole different argument about inferring racism on people because of their indirect actions - and that's really tricky. It's human instinct to try and see both sides in an argument. Clearly Ramage made a racist remark in the heat of the moment when he didn't engage his brain properly, and there is nuance to the situation. You have to look at it, consider it and then conclude - yes it was racist. He didn't go out and beat up someone of a different race purely because of the colour of their skin, which would have been obvious racism that needed no consideration whatsoever. I think the simple act of considering the nuance should not be used as a reason to call someone racist. In this case I think considering it and deciding it's NOT racist would be totally the wrong call. Then we're in the realms of "is defending someone's right to say it's not racist" a racist act in itself? Reminds me of a scene from a Monty Python film. 23 minutes ago, Anag Ram said: The incident was fairly typical of Derby's inability to find their own player with headers. Week after week, the opposition calmly head the ball to feet whilst we seem unable to head it with any direction. It's also fair to say that their left back was about 30 yards from goal when he got the ball and that we made his path to goal pretty easy. Bogle was culpable but only in part. Obviously we are in need of a HEAD coach. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ramsbottom Posted February 17, 2020 Share Posted February 17, 2020 11 minutes ago, LazloW said: Sticking to football matters for a minute, I agree about our heading ability. I've made similar comments during matches where it seems like our players just see that 'getting their heads on it' is enough, without really caring where it goes. That obviously might be the correct course of action when defending a set peice, but in open play I rarely see any player (apart from Rooney) seemingly trying to find a player woth a header. Ironically, Bogle probably was trying to find somebody with his header, but he fluffed it completely. Something for the coaches to work on with the whole squad I reckon (on his mistake, he isn't the first player to have made one - or be going through a bad patch - he won't be the last.... from my limited vantage point I can't see anythng remotely wrong with his attitude either. Same for the other younger players). I'd read on Twitter before this all blew up that Ramage had been having a pop at Bird. Frankly, that is bizarre. Bogle certainly isn't solely to blame for the goal. Both Davies & Roos don't exactly cover themselves in glory either... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimbobram Posted February 17, 2020 Share Posted February 17, 2020 13 minutes ago, ramsbottom said: Bogle certainly isn't solely to blame for the goal. Both Davies & Roos don't exactly cover themselves in glory either... I rarely like to blame the keeper for goals, because their mistakes are costly, but what on earth is Roos doing to let that ball beat him at the near post. the angle is so tight, going to ground their is literally the last option he should be taking. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
B4ev6is Posted February 17, 2020 Share Posted February 17, 2020 6 hours ago, Squid said: mardy bums... @B4ev6ishow you feeling about this news pal Steele on commentary, your best mate ? I think max low over reacted to the comments well I dont like steel one bit and my mum said she never listening to the games as steel bouring to listen too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Comrade 86 Posted February 17, 2020 Share Posted February 17, 2020 5 hours ago, unclej said: Ramage isn't racist and its OK to be white. Pathetic. Literally nobody has said it's not ok to be white, but yeah, it's all about you isn't it? 4 hours ago, unclej said: Sterling is a horrible little player, nothing to do with the colour of his skin. He's a journeyman, a diver and a goal hanger. I never noticed Lingards colour when he was with us. Another comment that says rather more about you than than its intended target. I wonder whether you'd be so vocal about your distaste for Sterling had he not stood up for himself and what he sees as institutional racism? As for pretending that you don't notice that black players are black, that is the most ridiculous thing I've ever read on this forum. Do you watch games via braille or does your labrador provide you with a commentary? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LazloW Posted February 17, 2020 Share Posted February 17, 2020 30 minutes ago, ramsbottom said: Bogle certainly isn't solely to blame for the goal. Both Davies & Roos don't exactly cover themselves in glory either... In fairness, you're right. Plenty happened after the header... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve How Hard? Posted February 17, 2020 Share Posted February 17, 2020 42 minutes ago, Ghost of Clough said: Waghorn throws his arms at 4:47, by 4:49 his arms are down and he's walking up field. They were still arguing as they walked further up the pitch as I recall. Either way it was a terrible goal to concede and totally avoidable regardless of blame. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ram1964 Posted February 17, 2020 Share Posted February 17, 2020 1 hour ago, Steve How Hard? said: To be fair to Waggy, I think he was just refuting Bogles claim that it was his fault. He's got a bad attitude that Bogle................or so I'm told. ? Be careful or you could be accused of being an attitudist,? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
curb Posted February 17, 2020 Share Posted February 17, 2020 1 hour ago, Ghost of Clough said: It was still a wonky under hit header. Bogle had 4 options. 1. Head to Waghorn to keep play going. 2. Head clear for a throw - with the distance to the sideline, there's a high chance of their winger intercepting and getting an easy cross in. 3. Head clear up the field. Bogle isn't renown for the distance on his headers, so it likely would have fell to their LB anyway. 4. Control the ball and play out - it seemed like a difficult ball to control, and a bad touch would result in the winger going through on goal. Even with a good touch, the winger would be pressing him quickly. I'm siding with an accurate header to Waghorn as being the best option. Which he did, but Waghorn was too far away and didn’t react as quick as the attacker. It was a difficult ball to deal with because it was looping and nobody would have got enough on it to clear it past the attacker near the touch line or the player in front of him. He could have headed it backwards towards goal but that was risky as he wouldn’t have been fully aware of what was behind him. Add to that he’d only just come on the pitch for Wisdom. I personally thought he was very harshly criticised for something when there was very little else he could do, if anything Roos was more at fault for not standing up and letting it in on his near post. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ram1964 Posted February 17, 2020 Share Posted February 17, 2020 3 hours ago, utisbug said: Its genuinely unbelievable how many of you don't get it. Of course I can judge him on the words he's said. You can't mitigate what he said by saying oh but look, he's a good guy. Surely, you understand that. I'm saying nobody can judge him on anything other than his comments. It's an injustice to the black community to mitigate comments that stereotype them based on skin colour and that is what Ramage did when he made his comments. It matters not what you think of him as a person. It's not the job of anyone to defend comments like his less go into the reasons why. All we can do as onlookers is call it out, label it, and denounce those carrying the message. Only that way can black people be truly be protected against comments like this. Both max and Jaden are clearly effected by Ramage's words and if I were them and I saw supporters of the team I played for taking time out of their day to defend Ramage as opposed to condemning him then I'd feel let down. Theres an obvious problem with racism in football, now is not the time to be standing by people making racist comments. Black players of every team should feel the fans they play for are ready to point out and exile racists within their group and here on this forum plenty of Derby fans think it's time to stand up for Ramage. Either I'm losing my mind or the guy who works for Radio Derby as a commentator said "So I’d probably say that about all the young black lads, all the young advice if they wanted it, that, you know, it’s about, when you are struggling for form, you are going through a sticky patch, it’s about going back to basics, working hard, and doing the right things." If you're claiming that isn't racist you're letting those "young black lads" down. don't wish to try and clarify if Ramage is racist or not. I have no idea, don't know the guy well enougth. His words, terminology was inappropriate but have we not all said things that have come out wrong. Surely a poor use of vocabulary in the moment doesn't necessarily make you a racist. I am not condoning Ramage, personally think he is a poor comentator/ pundit. However waffling in the moment I am sure we are all capable of saying things ineffectivly, incorrectly, or without due thought. Racism is wrong, but let's not just jump on the band wagon persecuting someone on the evidence of trying to make a point and referring to players collectively by their skin colour rather than Useing their names. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stive Pesley Posted February 17, 2020 Share Posted February 17, 2020 1 hour ago, ramsbottom said: All I have been discussing is how people can not see his comments as anything other than racist. He's labelled a group of players lazy based on their ethnic backgrounds. Not sure how users like the below can still say it isn't... I do wonder how many of the people giving it the "I don't condone what he said, but something something not racist" are really just dealing with their own sub-conscious and realising that it could quite easily be something they'd say themselves in the company of friends? Not like they owe anything to Ramage in defending him.. edit: see above Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
curb Posted February 17, 2020 Share Posted February 17, 2020 43 minutes ago, 86 Schmokes & a Pancake said: Pathetic. Literally nobody has said it's not ok to be white, but yeah, it's all about you isn't it? Another comment that says rather more about you than than its intended target. I wonder whether you'd be so vocal about your distaste for Sterling had he not stood up for himself and what he sees as institutional racism? As for pretending that you don't notice that black players are black, that is the most ridiculous thing I've ever read on this forum. Do you watch games via braille or does your labrador provide you with a commentary? Maybe he just listens to Radio Derby Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
utisbug Posted February 17, 2020 Share Posted February 17, 2020 3 minutes ago, ram1964 said: don't wish to try and clarify if Ramage is racist or not. I have no idea, don't know the guy well enougth. His words, terminology was inappropriate but have we not all said things that have come out wrong. Surely a poor use of vocabulary in the moment doesn't necessarily make you a racist. I am not condoning Ramage, personally think he is a poor comentator/ pundit. However waffling in the moment I am sure we are all capable of saying things ineffectivly, incorrectly, or without due thought. Racism is wrong, but let's not just jump on the band wagon persecuting someone on the evidence of trying to make a point and referring to players collectively by their skin colour rather than Useing their names. No mate. I can't agree with the sentiment of not "persecuting someone on the evidence". I'll stick to calling a spade a spade. He made a racist comment. To think the way he does, to make that kind of statement makes him racist. Anybody defending him is wrong. End of. So, what you and many others are saying is sometimes people make racist comments but they aren't racist. Let's let him off, he's not really racist. So who are the racists? How do we spot them? Nobody here personally knows Ramage but enough feel they can vouch for him not being racist? So, is it just folk we've never heard or seen before that are the real racists? I mean folk that sound nice and used to play for Derby aren't really racists, they just make mistakes, right? How thick are people to not understand the precedent you set when allowing language like that? Crazy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Comrade 86 Posted February 17, 2020 Share Posted February 17, 2020 5 minutes ago, curb said: Maybe he just listens to Radio Derby If that's the case I take it all back. He has my utmost sympathy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DRBee Posted February 17, 2020 Share Posted February 17, 2020 14 minutes ago, ram1964 said: don't wish to try and clarify if Ramage is racist or not. I have no idea, don't know the guy well enougth. His words, terminology was inappropriate but have we not all said things that have come out wrong. Surely a poor use of vocabulary in the moment doesn't necessarily make you a racist. I am not condoning Ramage, personally think he is a poor comentator/ pundit. However waffling in the moment I am sure we are all capable of saying things ineffectivly, incorrectly, or without due thought. Racism is wrong, but let's not just jump on the band wagon persecuting someone on the evidence of trying to make a point and referring to players collectively by their skin colour rather than Useing their names. " Surely a poor use of vocabulary in the moment doesn't necessarily make you a racist. " Why does it need to be explained to you that it is a racist comment when a group players ("black" players to use Rammage's words) are being selected for criticism on the basis of their colour. It's not just a use of vocabulary - a group of people are being singled out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ramit Posted February 17, 2020 Share Posted February 17, 2020 4 minutes ago, utisbug said: No mate. I can't agree with the sentiment of not "persecuting someone on the evidence". I'll stick to calling a spade a spade. Uhm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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