The Politics Thread 2020

[Highgate]

1 hour ago, DarkFruitsRam7 said:

I agree that people shouldn’t be made to feel guilty about something that happened hundreds of years ago and which they had absolutely nothing to do with.

However, I do feel that people would be more open to listening about the subtle, subconscious discrimination that pervades society today if they were taught that the Empire wasn’t all sunshine and rainbows, and that it was extremely brutal and exploitative. People seem uncomfortable about the idea that Britain, like every single country in the world, has a dark history, and in turn are uncomfortable about any lingering legacies from that time.

Yeah nobody should feel guilty about the crimes  that their ancestors or country may have committed in the past. Every country that had the opportunity to exploit weaker countries seems to have been willing to do so.  And those conquered countries would probably have done the same if they had the opportunity themselves. 

Understanding and acknowledging that darker history and perhaps not glorifying the conquering of other nations would be sufficient.

[Stagtime]

11 hours ago, Archied said:

?,,, how is that democracy 

Exactly how ours works, the cornerstone of democracy is the right to vote. That way the decision is "by the people", not "by the people that could be bothered to vote". It would be interesting to know what percentage of the eligible voting population voted for Brexit. 

[Highgate]

41 minutes ago, maxjam said:

Another good post and I entirely agree about the environment ?

I think the key difference between me and others on this forum is that I can separate what Trump says (often vile) to what Trump does (a lot of which have benefited the average American).  There will be key points we disagree on, similar to the Tory/Labour debate over here but I feel that the average American is closer to Trump's economics than The Green New Deal etc.

Of course actions do speak louder than words as a general rule, but he is the President of the US and his words do matter.  An awful lot of people listen to what he says and take him very seriously.  So when he is spewing his usual mixture of misinformation, self congratulation, fear and nonsense it sets a tone for political discourse in the U.S.

Maybe you are right....maybe the average American is closer to Trump economics than the Green New Deal (or something similar), I don't know really. But if that is the case, the future is bleak indeed.

[Archied]

1 minute ago, Stagtime said:

Exactly how ours works, the cornerstone of democracy is the right to vote. That way the decision is "by the people", not "by the people that could be bothered to vote". It would be interesting to know what percentage of the eligible voting population voted for Brexit. 

There’s a very big difference between the right to vote and being forced to vote and I would say that it’s much the same as the difference between democracy and dictatorship,,, 

also you make a massive improper assumption that all those who don’t vote in an election do so because they can’t be bothered ,there is a very large and growing number of people in this country that 100% feel there is nobody that represents them and they can vote for with a clear conscience, then add in our first past the post system , the years of boundary tinkering that can render lots of people’s votes as pretty much worthless then you have a recipe for a failing democracy that more and more people are refusing to go along with the pretence ,

 

[Gee SCREAMER !!]

3 hours ago, DarkFruitsRam7 said:

I agree that people shouldn’t be made to feel guilty about something that happened hundreds of years ago and which they had absolutely nothing to do with.

However, I do feel that people would be more open to listening about the subtle, subconscious discrimination that pervades society today if they were taught that the Empire wasn’t all sunshine and rainbows, and that it was extremely brutal and exploitative. People seem uncomfortable about the idea that Britain, like every single country in the world, has a dark history, and in turn are uncomfortable about any lingering legacies from that time.

To be honest, the average person in the street -or working 15 hrs a day to line some land owners pocket/ loosing fingers everyday from the age of 6 in cotton mills- had bugger all to do with empire.  They were generally  busy trying to avoid the hang mans noose for nicking grain under the bloody code or being quartered for protesting the right to make bread .  Everybody bar the few at the top of the chain were oppressed 400 years ago.  Brutal exploitation was found as easily at home as overseas as little as 120 years ago. 

[Comrade 86]

4 hours ago, i-Ram said:

A good number of those protesting in London tonight probably have never washed, let alone rinsed their hands for 20 seconds in warm soapy water. 

Why would you suggest that a 'good number of those protesting in London tonight probably have never washed'?

What demographic suggests as much, to your mind? 

 

 

 

[uttoxram75]

6 minutes ago, Gee SCREAMER !! said:

To be honest, the average person in the street -or working 15 hrs a day to line some land owners pocket/ loosing fingers everyday from the age of 6 in cotton mills- had bugger all to do with empire.  They were generally  busy trying to avoid the hang mans noose for nicking grain under the bloody code or being quartered for protesting the right to make bread .  Everybody bar the few at the top of the chain were oppressed 400 years ago.  Brutal exploitation was found as easily at home as overseas as little as 120 years ago. 

Good points.

Its less than 100 years since the average Brit has had the vote, education, access to healthcare, paid holidays, sick pay, safety at work, a safety net, pensions and the chance of a life out of poverty.

FFS lets not give it all away because a handful of billionaires want to divide us incase we blame them for the state of the world.

If we didn't hate each other we might just look at who's actually running the show.....

[MuespachRam]

5 hours ago, BriggRam said:

never much about this on our mainstream news.........maybe because its not fake, or fits in wth their agenda

Or maybe because It is all a crock of poo and the man is a a compete fuckwit...?

[DarkFruitsRam7]

5 hours ago, Gee SCREAMER !! said:

To be honest, the average person in the street -or working 15 hrs a day to line some land owners pocket/ loosing fingers everyday from the age of 6 in cotton mills- had bugger all to do with empire.  They were generally  busy trying to avoid the hang mans noose for nicking grain under the bloody code or being quartered for protesting the right to make bread .  Everybody bar the few at the top of the chain were oppressed 400 years ago.  Brutal exploitation was found as easily at home as overseas as little as 120 years ago. 

Yep. We did learn about that though, so I have an understanding of the difficulties faced by all in England throughout our history, right up to workers in the Victorian era. We just never got given the perspective of those who really suffered at the hands of the Empire.

[maxjam]

5 hours ago, MuespachRam said:

Or maybe because It is all a crock of poo and the man is a a compete fuckwit...?

Or maybe its a mixture of both?

Even CNN begrudgingly acknowledge some of Trumps achievements, although they hilariously call him out for being dishonest;

Trump's penchant for dishonesty is well-established. His rhetoric is littered with major fabrications, entire stories he seems to have invented out of thin air. But his remarks are also peppered with extremely trivial exaggerations, slight stretches about accomplishments that would seem not to need any deception to shine.

It sometimes seems as if he has set his Teleprompter to automatically translate the word "almost" to "more than." When the unemployment rate was the lowest in 49 years, Trump boasted of the lowest rate in "more than 50 years." When he had confirmed 91 new federal judges, he claimed "more than 100 new federal judges." When the country had added 481,000 manufacturing jobs since his election, he touted "more than 500,000 jobs."

Fair enough if you are going to be pedantic it is inaccurate, but what politician doesn't round up lowest unemployment in 49yrs to 50yrs? 91 new judges to 100 or 481k new jobs to 500k etc?  I'm not arguing that he does talk a lot of garbage but to say all he's achieved is a 'crock of poo' would be inaccurate as well.

https://edition.cnn.com/2019/07/28/politics/trump-exaggerates-unemployment-accomplishments/index.html

[TramRam]

7 hours ago, Highgate said:

1 hour ago, DarkFruitsRam7 said:

Yep. We did learn about that though, so I have an understanding of the difficulties faced by all in England throughout our history, right up to workers in the Victorian era. We just never got given the perspective of those who really suffered at the hands of the Empire.

Gee SCREAMER has shown our ancesters were just as oppressed as those that were conquered, Education back then was non existent, The rich and wealthy were doing fine, The majority lived by the day, Australia was built on Criminal activity, For pinching a loaf of bread instead of being hanged you were transported for 7-14 years even at a very young age, Child mortality was rife, Disease hit all, Money was of no use, Those British sailers that helped defeat the Spanish Armada suffered at the hands of Queen Elizabeth 1st, More died through disease or starved at her hands while still on those ships than were killed in action...why, Because sailers only got paid when they landed on home shore, So she kept them at sea.

Oliver Cromwell had an Idea once, Lets top our Royalty, So King Charles 1st lost his head because he thought he was Gods chosen one(a bit like David Ike),11 years of austerity followed, You couldn't celebrate Christmas, Going down the boozer was seen as drinking with the devil, You had to worship every Sunday whether you liked it of not, He died and the Royal family was welcomed back ie King Charles the 2nd, There was a party of huge proportions through the land, We new when we were better off.

The "Common" Man/Woman are now a more educated peoples, We know what's good for us, We're aware of those who would do us harm, We know that alot of the Worlds leaders are disenfranchised from us, We don't have to accept their ideology any longer, But,There's still Children losing fingers for a days work, There's familys working in sweatshops around the world so we can have cheap clothing, There's executions in Countries for daring to speak out, Females are being shipped around Continents for others pleasure, Drugs are killing people by the 1000s each day...WHERE ARE THE PROTESTS!

[DarkFruitsRam7]

2 minutes ago, TramRam said:

 

I can't help but feel that, with your first two paragraphs, you sort of ignored what I said. I said that we had learned about the struggles our own people have faced throughout history.

As for your last one, there obviously are protests about sweatshops, executions and sex trafficking. But there are going to be flare ups of particular issues when events like the killing of George Floyd happen, which is the tip of the iceberg. I'm sure there will one day be significant events that lead to protests about sweatshops, executions and sex trafficking becoming the main news story.

Also, the Black Lives Matter protests are largely happening in Western Countries, where the aforementioned issues aren't really a thing. It doesn't mean that those issues are less worthy, but it's understandable that they receive less attention than the problems that people are living through to varying degrees in the US, the UK, etc.

I'd probably attend a protest if Mel Morris tried to raise season ticket prices to £2000. Does that mean I don't care about the other issues in the world? Of course not.

[GboroRam]

9 hours ago, Archied said:

There’s a very big difference between the right to vote and being forced to vote and I would say that it’s much the same as the difference between democracy and dictatorship,,, 

also you make a massive improper assumption that all those who don’t vote in an election do so because they can’t be bothered ,there is a very large and growing number of people in this country that 100% feel there is nobody that represents them and they can vote for with a clear conscience, then add in our first past the post system , the years of boundary tinkering that can render lots of people’s votes as pretty much worthless then you have a recipe for a failing democracy that more and more people are refusing to go along with the pretence ,

 

I don't have a problem with people being mandated to vote - I believe it happens in Australia, and you wouldn't suggest that country was a dictatorship. There's plenty of things you don't get a choice in doing, but it doesn't mean it's not a democracy you live in.

What doesn't sit right with me is that by forcing everyone to vote, you are forcing people who aren't educated in the issues who don't have any interest to choose a side. I have no problem with people voting for what they believe in, and hope that all those people who vote do so on some form of educated choice. But if you make it mandatory, every person - those people who have never read a news article, never watched a political debate, who have no knowledge of the manifestos of the parties - now has to help elect someone into position. That's not going to help anything, I feel.

[JuanFloEvraTheCocu'sNesta]

23 minutes ago, GboroRam said:

I don't have a problem with people being mandated to vote - I believe it happens in Australia, and you wouldn't suggest that country was a dictatorship. There's plenty of things you don't get a choice in doing, but it doesn't mean it's not a democracy you live in.

What doesn't sit right with me is that by forcing everyone to vote, you are forcing people who aren't educated in the issues who don't have any interest to choose a side. I have no problem with people voting for what they believe in, and hope that all those people who vote do so on some form of educated choice. But if you make it mandatory, every person - those people who have never read a news article, never watched a political debate, who have no knowledge of the manifestos of the parties - now has to help elect someone into position. That's not going to help anything, I feel.

If you are going to force everyone to vote I think you need to have an option on the ballot that basically says 'none of the above'. That way people who actively do not want to endorse any candidate for legitimate reasons have an option.

[maxjam]

13 minutes ago, JuanFloEvraTheCocu'sNesta said:

If you are going to force everyone to vote I think you need to have an option on the ballot that basically says 'none of the above'. That way people who actively do not want to endorse any candidate for legitimate reasons have an option.

It is very hard to justify forcing someone to vote for something they don't believe in or have little knowledge about whilst simultaneously insisting we live in a democracy. 

The option not to vote should always exist, it is up to politicians to earn our vote.

We have also got to look at reforming the system, in the UK the government often gets around 35% of the vote but assumes total control - that can't be right either.  It has benefits of course as decisions get made and you can react to situations quickly, but sometimes I think that its far better to slow down and make a better long term decision.

Not gonna happen though, cos powah!!!

[i-Ram]

8 hours ago, 86 Schmokes & a Pancake said:

Why would you suggest that a 'good number of those protesting in London tonight probably have never washed'?

What demographic suggests as much, to your mind? 

 

 

 

Tap the “great unwashed” into Google if you want to find the answer that might suit the debate, or the point, you wish to make here. Or otherwise you could just enjoy, or reject, the intended humour.  

[i-Ram]

59 minutes ago, GboroRam said:

I don't have a problem with people being mandated to vote - I believe it happens in Australia, and you wouldn't suggest that country was a dictatorship. There's plenty of things you don't get a choice in doing, but it doesn't mean it's not a democracy you live in.

What doesn't sit right with me is that by forcing everyone to vote, you are forcing people who aren't educated in the issues who don't have any interest to choose a side. I have no problem with people voting for what they believe in, and hope that all those people who vote do so on some form of educated choice. But if you make it mandatory, every person - those people who have never read a news article, never watched a political debate, who have no knowledge of the manifestos of the parties - now has to help elect someone into position. That's not going to help anything, I feel.

I guess that at least 25% of the electorate don’t make educated choices they more simply vote for the party that their father, and grandfather before him, voted for. 

[Archied]

1 hour ago, GboroRam said:

I don't have a problem with people being mandated to vote - I believe it happens in Australia, and you wouldn't suggest that country was a dictatorship. There's plenty of things you don't get a choice in doing, but it doesn't mean it's not a democracy you live in.

What doesn't sit right with me is that by forcing everyone to vote, you are forcing people who aren't educated in the issues who don't have any interest to choose a side. I have no problem with people voting for what they believe in, and hope that all those people who vote do so on some form of educated choice. But if you make it mandatory, every person - those people who have never read a news article, never watched a political debate, who have no knowledge of the manifestos of the parties - now has to help elect someone into position. That's not going to help anything, I feel.

Ok the dictatorship may be a bit of a stretch but you can see the point , we want to live in a society that allows personal choice ( that doesn’t hurt others ) 

Australia has been in a political mess for some time now and perhaps forcing people to vote might play into that

[Stive Pesley]

13 hours ago, DarkFruitsRam7 said:

Out of interest, was anyone taught the gritty details of the British Empire at school? I don't think we ever really looked at the more horrific aspects.

Good point - we essentially did 1066, the king that murdered his wives, some wars that we won. All the stuff that now looks bad was never even mentioned

Another question - how old were you when you had your first non-white teacher - and what year was that?

I was 11, it was 1982 and there was one black teacher in the whole school (and still was when I left 5 years later). When I look back, the racist stuff that we as kids said to him back then would have had us expelled if a kid said it now. That guy had the patience of a saint and endured it EVERY day. An absolute inspiration

[DarkFruitsRam7]

4 minutes ago, SchtivePesley said:

Good point - we essentially did 1066, the king that murdered his wives, some wars that we won. All the stuff that now looks bad was never even mentioned

Another question - how old were you when you had your first non-white teacher - and what year was that?

I was 11, it was 1982 and there was one black teacher in the whole school (and still was when I left 5 years later). When I look back, the racist stuff that we as kids said to him back then would have had us expelled if a kid said it now. That guy had the patience of a saint and endured it EVERY day. An absolute inspiration

I had an Asian teacher for a few months in Year 3 (so 7 years old). I don't recall any others since then, at school or uni.