G STAR RAM Posted January 1, 2020 Share Posted January 1, 2020 10 hours ago, Grumpy Git said: There would be no such thing as the minimum wage or the NHS if the Tories had always been in power. Happy New Year. Fair enough if that's what you believe. Quite strange that the Tories have never chosen to scrap either though despite being in power for so long during both. Happy New Year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sith Happens Posted January 1, 2020 Share Posted January 1, 2020 11 hours ago, Grumpy Git said: There would be no such thing as the minimum wage or the NHS if the Tories had always been in power. Happy New Year. 1 hour ago, G STAR RAM said: Fair enough if that's what you believe. Quite strange that the Tories have never chosen to scrap either though despite being in power for so long during both. Happy New Year. Would we have a minimum wage if 'real labour ' had been in power during the past 40 odd years? Wasn't it Labour who got rid of it originally? It's going over old ground but it was said that an NHS would more than likely have come into being regardless of who was in power post war, even the biographer of the person who was widely acknowledged as being the driving force behind it said so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stive Pesley Posted January 2, 2020 Share Posted January 2, 2020 On 31/12/2019 at 21:22, maxjam said: If I said yes (just to you) would it help you sleep better at night knowing you were right about me all along? Happy New Year! So this implies your answer is "no of course not"? Which in turn implies that you are selective in which protected characteristic groups you have a problem with when they seek to organise and achieve equality (which is essentially what "identity politics" is)? But I guess not - as that would expose some level of prejudice. A tricky one eh? Happy new year to you too! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maxjam Posted January 2, 2020 Share Posted January 2, 2020 11 minutes ago, SchtivePesley said: So this implies your answer is "no of course not"? Which in turn implies that you are selective in which protected characteristic groups you have a problem with when they seek to organise and achieve equality (which is essentially what "identity politics" is)? But I guess not - as that would expose some level of prejudice. A tricky one eh? Happy new year to you too! The article mentioned increasing the diversity of visitors, assuming they were refering to race/religion - they should just accept it for what it is, a natural beauty. I wouldn't expect to go elsewhere in the world and demand there was a chip shop, pub or whatever to encourage me to visit. I think you were being deliberately argumentative singling out disabled people however as that puts me in a no win situation. I personally don't think areas of natural beauty should be ruined by having roads and other facilities built on them, equally I can understand that this may limit some people from visiting. Its a tricky decision and one I'm glad I don't have to make. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stive Pesley Posted January 2, 2020 Share Posted January 2, 2020 1 minute ago, maxjam said: I think you were being deliberately argumentative singling out disabled people however as that puts me in a no win situation. Well I'm certainly pointing out the fallacy of identity politics, given that you said "If I had one wish for 2020 it would be to get rid of all this identity politics". Whilstsoever we have marginalised groups with specific characteristics in our society - they will always need to come together to fight for their rights. Or "Identity Politics" if you will In your world there would still be apartheid in South Africa That said, I'm not denying that there are some examples where identity politics can become slightly counter-productive, but to use those examples as a reason to wish away people's rights to collectivise for equality is a dangerous path Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maxjam Posted January 2, 2020 Share Posted January 2, 2020 6 minutes ago, SchtivePesley said: Well I'm certainly pointing out the fallacy of identity politics, given that you said "If I had one wish for 2020 it would be to get rid of all this identity politics". Okay I should have defined it better as the identity politics of faux outrage, oppression olympics and thinking that thinking that up is down, good is bad and men are women. 8 minutes ago, SchtivePesley said: In your world there would still be apartheid in South Africa Thats not really a very nice thing to insinuate about me. When have I ever argued for anything other than equal rights for individuals? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stive Pesley Posted January 2, 2020 Share Posted January 2, 2020 1 hour ago, maxjam said: Thats not really a very nice thing to insinuate about me. When have I ever argued for anything other than equal rights for individuals? Sorry pal - i'm not insinuating that you approve of apartheid! Apologies if it came across that way. I was just trying to point out that you wished for an end to identity politics - which back in the old South Africa would have meant Mandela still in prison as a terrorist and no black rights movement 1 hour ago, maxjam said: I should have defined it better as the identity politics of faux outrage, oppression olympics and thinking that thinking that up is down, good is bad and men are women. That's not really identity politics though. I agree that i'd like to see an end to social media lynch mob mentality. But then that won't happen unless both sides play their part. That includes you Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maxjam Posted January 2, 2020 Share Posted January 2, 2020 11 minutes ago, SchtivePesley said: I was just trying to point out that you wished for an end to identity politics - which back in the old South Africa would have meant Mandela still in prison as a terrorist and no black rights movement Although a lack of identity politics wouldn't have led to apartheid in the first place. 11 minutes ago, SchtivePesley said: That's not really identity politics though. I agree that i'd like to see an end to social media lynch mob mentality. But then that won't happen unless both sides play their part. That includes you I agree that it winds me up when I see identity politics in action. I don't think I add that much fuel to the fire though, other than on here I don't post on t'interweb! I got some of the text in my previous post from a series of 8 tweets from Dave Rubin I read yesterday. They pretty much sum up my feelings of where we are currently and hopes for the future; https://twitter.com/RubinReport/status/1212358064118083584 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Highgate Posted January 2, 2020 Share Posted January 2, 2020 1 hour ago, maxjam said: Okay I should have defined it better as the identity politics of faux outrage, oppression olympics and thinking that thinking that up is down, good is bad and men are women. Thats not really a very nice thing to insinuate about me. When have I ever argued for anything other than equal rights for individuals? So you are not wishing away identity politics but the more extreme examples of it? You agree then that identity politics has often been a good and necessary thing. Like in S.Africa for example? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maxjam Posted January 2, 2020 Share Posted January 2, 2020 6 minutes ago, Highgate said: You agree then that identity politics has often been a good and necessary thing. Like in S.Africa for example? No I'm saying that identity politics, defining people by immutable characteristics led to aparthied. Treating people as equals/individuals is the opposite of that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GboroRam Posted January 2, 2020 Share Posted January 2, 2020 14 minutes ago, maxjam said: No I'm saying that identity politics, defining people by immutable characteristics led to aparthied. Treating people as equals/individuals is the opposite of that. The problem is, there are some people who define their politics based on immutable characteristics. The white nationalist movement for example entirely reject your world view. The fact that there's a field of politics based on opposing, and in many cases discriminating in the opposite direction, means we're unlikely to be in a situation where we can ignore people's immutable characteristics. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Highgate Posted January 2, 2020 Share Posted January 2, 2020 20 minutes ago, maxjam said: No I'm saying that identity politics, defining people by immutable characteristics led to aparthied. Treating people as equals/individuals is the opposite of that. We could just call that racism though, couldn't we? We pretty much all agree racism is bad. Are you saying that identity politics and racism are the same thing? If so why not just call it racism? Wasn't Mandela's and the ANC's response to apartheid, or MLK's civil rights movement....or gay marriage movement's all over the world positive examples of identity politics? People grouping together to campaign against a particular form of discrimination (a form of discrimination based entirely on an unchangeable part of their identity). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Norman Posted January 2, 2020 Share Posted January 2, 2020 Identity politics is like the Labour Party. Was useful, has done good in the past, but is now a tool for the extreme left. That's my view. Roooooooooney Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maxjam Posted January 2, 2020 Share Posted January 2, 2020 53 minutes ago, GboroRam said: The problem is, there are some people who define their politics based on immutable characteristics. The white nationalist movement for example entirely reject your world view. The fact that there's a field of politics based on opposing, and in many cases discriminating in the opposite direction, means we're unlikely to be in a situation where we can ignore people's immutable characteristics. 38 minutes ago, Highgate said: We could just call that racism though, couldn't we? We pretty much all agree racism is bad. Are you saying that identity politics and racism are the same thing? If so why not just call it racism? Wasn't Mandela's and the ANC's response to apartheid, or MLK's civil rights movement....or gay marriage movement's all over the world positive examples of identity politics? People grouping together to campaign against a particular form of discrimination (a form of discrimination based entirely on an unchangeable part of their identity). Identity politics is a wide reaching phrase, it covers both racism and the response racism for example - and you wouldn't need the latter if the former wasn't a thing! TBH identity politics starts from a good place, take feminism for example but is often taken to the extreme which is where we are in a lot of areas today. First wave feminism was about achieving equality (again, inequality being a product of identity politics) whereas modern fourth wave or whatever it is feminism is more about revenge and demonising men and once again returning to group think and identity politics. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Highgate Posted January 2, 2020 Share Posted January 2, 2020 3 minutes ago, maxjam said: Identity politics is a wide reaching phrase, it covers both racism and the response racism for example - and you wouldn't need the latter if the former wasn't a thing! TBH identity politics starts from a good place, take feminism for example but is often taken to the extreme which is where we are in a lot of areas today. First wave feminism was about achieving equality (again, inequality being a product of identity politics) whereas modern fourth wave or whatever it is feminism is more about revenge and demonising men and once again returning to group think and identity politics. To quote Betrand Russell.......again.... 'All movements go too far'. We probably wouldn't agree on what constitutes 'too far' though... Until discrimination on the basis of identity or aspects of identity is at an end (and we are not there yet)...then there will always be a need for some version of identity politics. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maxjam Posted January 2, 2020 Share Posted January 2, 2020 I see that Charlotte Nicols is trending on twitter atm, which ties into stuff we were discussing a few pages ago... Massively disagree with what she says. Is she advocating mass riots every time there is a Tommy Robinson rally or Britain First march? What about UKIP? Who decides what a nazi is now-a-days given the term is thrown around so loosely? We have a police force and law and order for a reason. Imagine if Boris Johnson had said its okay to go around kicking anti-semites in the head before the election. Might have made election night more interesting, a boxing referee could have held the constituency winners hand aloft! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stive Pesley Posted January 2, 2020 Share Posted January 2, 2020 1 hour ago, GboroRam said: The problem is, there are some people who define their politics based on immutable characteristics. The white nationalist movement for example entirely reject your world view. The fact that there's a field of politics based on opposing, and in many cases discriminating in the opposite direction, means we're unlikely to be in a situation where we can ignore people's immutable characteristics. You could also say that Brexit is "identity politics gone mad". People identifying so strongly with a British identity that they see the association with the EU as some kind of a conspiracy against them and how leaving the EU will give their British identity renewed strength In fact there is Brexit-esque right-wing nationalism in most European countries. Shared ethnic characteristics. All identity politics in truth, but we never call it that - because it's never identity politics when the identity in question is the dominant characteristic in society Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Highgate Posted January 2, 2020 Share Posted January 2, 2020 14 minutes ago, maxjam said: I see that Charlotte Nicols is trending on twitter atm, which ties into stuff we were discussing a few pages ago... Massively disagree with what she says. Is she advocating mass riots every time there is a Tommy Robinson rally or Britain First march? What about UKIP? Who decides what a nazi is now-a-days given the term is thrown around so loosely? We have a police force and law and order for a reason. Imagine if Boris Johnson had said its okay to go around kicking anti-semites in the head before the election. Might have made election night more interesting, a boxing referee could have held the constituency winners hand aloft! I'm not in favour attacking anyone on the basis of their political views. Violence is for self defence only as far as I'm concerned. But she's Jewish......she' complaining about people who are clearly doing Nazi salutes. Presumably those people either condone historical genocide against Jewish people or are openly advocating it (or possibly I suppose denying that it ever existed). Can you imagine what it would feel like to be Jewish as see people do Nazi salutes? Can you imagine the rage and disgust that you would feel? I'm not going to condemn any Jewish person for having violent thoughts against those who openly declare themselves as Nazis. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maxjam Posted January 2, 2020 Share Posted January 2, 2020 13 minutes ago, Highgate said: I'm not in favour attacking anyone on the basis of their political views. Violence is for self defence only as far as I'm concerned. That bit I agree with, anything else should be left for the police and coming from an elected official its very dangerous talk imo. There are lots of factions around the world that are either at 'war' now or have been in the past, its not up to people to decide what the appropriate response is regardless of provocation otherwise things get out of hand very quickly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Van der MoodHoover Posted January 2, 2020 Share Posted January 2, 2020 Anyway, I've read Bozzer's New Year address and he talks about "Levelling Up", which seems to be giving poor regions access to all the goodies us civilised types living darn sarf have enjoyed for ages. So I'm sending up a tin of kumquats and I'll be encouraging @Angry Ram to be chipping in with a pint of pickled whelks anorl......... Happy New Year fellow travellers on Bozza's Whirlygig Ride of your life thing.......... ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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