The Politics Thread 2020

[King Kevin]

11 hours ago, ariotofmyown said:

She's just worried that you might be visiting!

I'll tell you what you wouldn't mind visiting my sister in law.

[Alph]

8 hours ago, 86 Schmokes & a Pancake said:

I haven't defended the phrase because, like you, I think it's a really poor choice of words. The point I tried and clearly failed to make, concerns people's continuing focus on arguments around 'virtue-signalling' and semantics rather than to the issue these movements are meant to address. Clearly the message has not got through for some, on that we agree. 

Despite the clumsiness of the phrase (let's not forget it originates from the US not the UK where the problem is a far greater one and perhaps, a more in your face approach is required), when folk spend more time concerning themselves with how an important message is delivered than the message itself, it feels to me that they've missed the point. I feel exactly the same way about folk who are more comfortable demeaning folk as virtue-signallers, than discussing the 'virtue' they may or may not be signalling. I don't feel this notion should be that hard to grasp.

As for the other example, that being the NHS, over 600,000 folk in the UK answered the government's 'call to arms' to assist in the fight against CV. I was one of them, though my services were deemed surplus. I wonder how many of those 600,000 also 'virtue-signalled' on social media? 

Perhaps I'm just being naive but it would be a far nicer planet if these negative assumptions around folks' motivations were less commonplace than they are. Of course some folk are less than sincere about their motivations, frankly, so what? Put simply, while I agree that crap slogans can alienate those they are trying to reach, I'd venture that deep-rooted cynicism does far more harm. The fact that you and I are debating how the 'white privelege' message is delivered and by whom, rather than the validity of the message itself, rather proves the point.

I get your points I truly do. 

I would say though that we are capable of discussing the topics/issues without the piggy backing for attention/self advertising/guilt tripping white people.

I do like how the messages spreads. I don't like how people say things that are blatantly untrue, hypocritical or insincere. On that we will just have to disagree. I'm ok with you calling me a cynic. I am. But I'm not so cynical that I refuse to hear the message. 

The white privilege message is the perfect point. Whatever message it carries will be lost because it's an offensive way of delivering it. We will spend time arguing about the way that message is delivered rather than the point it's trying to make. I think the way a message is delivered is important. 

Looting cities and attacking police is another way the true point gets lost. Anybody thinking this is solving issues is stupid. It does the same thing that the white privilege does. It alienates people. It loses sympathy. 

Change can't come from negativity, I think we would agree? 

I know it's a minefield. People will feel threatened as they always do when there are measures taken to promote/elevate ethnic minorities. I've felt frustrated myself by some of approaches to making things fair. 

Britain has been getting it right though. Every decade is better than the last. Every generation more inclusive. 

To adopt anything from the States is a terrible idea. I know the lines get blurred over social media but we are very different countries. I was hearing and seeing stuff from UK media/celebrities etc that doesn't represent Britain today. 

To quote a national radio DJ "We can all do our part to fight racism. We can acknowledge our white privilege". The first isn't true. The second is a terrible angle. But it sounded caring and philosophical so he will likely being saying it for a fortnight. 

[GboroRam]

4 minutes ago, Alpha said:

Looting cities and attacking police is another way the true point gets lost. Anybody thinking this is solving issues is stupid. It does the same thing that the white privilege does. It alienates people. It loses sympathy. 

Change can't come from negativity, I think we would agree? 

But this isn't about change. This is the explosion from allowing the tensions to pass breaking point. It's too late to think about making things better, for now. It needs de-escalation, then a consideration of what could be done differently. Unfortunately the US, similarly to the UK, isn't good at learning lessons.

A good leader would be looking to calm the situation, to look at what went wrong to cause the explosion. Trump's choice is to fight fire with fire. 

[i-Ram]

42 minutes ago, King Kevin said:

I'll tell you what you wouldn't mind visiting my sister in law.

Giggsy, is that you?

[Jourdan]

2 hours ago, DarkFruitsRam7 said:

I’ve cut the quote down so we don’t clog up the thread.

You make a good point about a Polish person perhaps facing more difficulties than a black person in the UK. And maybe the term ‘white privilege’ has a net negative effect because it does more harm than good. Maybe it’s emphasised too much when there are also huge issues of gender, class, etc, alongside it. I still think the intentions behind it are good though. When it comes down to it, even taking away class considerations, a black man will still probably have his life made more difficult by the colour of his skin in the UK, and a white man won’t.

Even if it’s just a sense of being the only black bloke in the office. I saw a tweet from someone the other day where he had stopped going for drinks with his colleagues because, after a few pints, people started bringing out the old ‘you look like 50 Cent’, calling him ‘brother’ while they called all the white people ‘mate’, etc. I think the idea behind the term ‘white privilege’ is that this is the stuff we don’t really pick up on because we don’t have any experience with it.

As for @Jourdan‘s point, I fully agree. Unless you’re locked in a cage all your life, you can drag yourself upwards in any situation if you have the right mentality. I don’t think having that belief is mutually exclusive with having an awareness of how it might be slightly more difficult for certain people to do so though.

Of course, but so many sections of society have struggles and obstacles to face. Women. The LGBT community. Muslims. The poor. The homeless. Black people are not alone in their struggles. Compared to those groups, could it be argued I experience privilege? Easily. But there are ways and means to address that.

I just think that the impact of this current social movement will be watered down - it has been infiltrated by self-congratulatory, all-knowing, all-seeing people with a messiah complex. It has become a vanity project for the supposedly woke, who in reality show a complete lack of substance.

Suddenly it’s on trend to care about the demise of black Americans? In the same way for a week, we were all praying for France. It’s a novelty for most people and so, any message behind these efforts feels empty and hollow.

If you really care, just call and check in on those same people that you profess ‘matter’. Ask questions, find out about their experiences, get a deeper understanding, build a connection.

Empathy is not about visibility. A phone call behind closed doors will do more good and generate more solidarity than any protest, any riot or any rent-a-quote social media post full of hot air.

[i-Ram]

2 minutes ago, Jourdan said:

Of course, but so many sections of society have struggles and obstacles to face. Women. The LGBT community. Muslims. The poor. The homeless. Black people are not alone in their struggles. Compared to those groups, could it be argued I experience privilege? Easily. But there are ways and means to address that.

I just think that the impact of this current social movement will be watered down - it has been infiltrated by self-congratulatory, all-knowing, all-seeing people with a messiah complex. It has become a vanity project for the supposedly woke, who in reality show a complex lack of substance.

Suddenly it’s on trend to care about the demise of black Americans? In the same way for a week, we were all praying for France. It’s a novelty for most people and so, any message behind these efforts feels empty and hollow.

If you really care, just call and check in on those same people that you profess ‘matter’. Ask questions, find out about their experiences, get a deeper understanding, build a connection.

Empathy is not about visibility. A phone call behind closed doors will do more good and generate more solidarity than any protest, any riot or any rent-a-quote social media post full of hot air.

You have just alienated the whole of Islington.  Great post though.

[Alph]

7 minutes ago, GboroRam said:

But this isn't about change. This is the explosion from allowing the tensions to pass breaking point. It's too late to think about making things better, for now. It needs de-escalation, then a consideration of what could be done differently. Unfortunately the US, similarly to the UK, isn't good at learning lessons.

A good leader would be looking to calm the situation, to look at what went wrong to cause the explosion. Trump's choice is to fight fire with fire. 

Are there not those who think they're delivering a message though? 

But I agree with the rest. I think Trump would turn a blind eye to even the sensible approaches many American celebrities and political figures (And George Floyd's brother) are calling for. 

I'm sure Trump is really a fictional character out of South Park, Family Guy, Team America etc  

Could you troll better than Trump?

[TramRam]

12 minutes ago, Alpha said:

I get your points I truly do. 

I would say though that we are capable of discussing the topics/issues without the piggy backing for attention/self advertising/guilt tripping white people.

I do like how the messages spreads. I don't like how people say things that are blatantly untrue, hypocritical or insincere. On that we will just have to disagree. I'm ok with you calling me a cynic. I am. But I'm not so cynical that I refuse to hear the message. 

The white privilege message is the perfect point. Whatever message it carries will be lost because it's an offensive way of delivering it. We will spend time arguing about the way that message is delivered rather than the point it's trying to make. I think the way a message is delivered is important. 

Looting cities and attacking police is another way the true point gets lost. Anybody thinking this is solving issues is stupid. It does the same thing that the white privilege does. It alienates people. It loses sympathy. 

Change can't come from negativity, I think we would agree? 

I know it's a minefield. People will feel threatened as they always do when there are measures taken to promote/elevate ethnic minorities. I've felt frustrated myself by some of approaches to making things fair. 

Britain has been getting it right though. Every decade is better than the last. Every generation more inclusive. 

To adopt anything from the States is a terrible idea. I know the lines get blurred over social media but we are very different countries. I was hearing and seeing stuff from UK media/celebrities etc that doesn't represent Britain today. 

To quote a national radio DJ "We can all do our part to fight racism. We can acknowledge our white privilege". The first isn't true. The second is a terrible angle. But it sounded caring and philosophical so he will likely being saying it for a fortnight. 

My white privilege saw me serve time at one of our HMPs, Several visits to a Magistrates court, Unemployed for 3.5 years in the early 80s, Being whacked by OB at football matches, Being refused immigration to Canada, Told sorry this pub is full only for others to get in, Stopped on my way to Orgreave Colliery by the Met at the top of the A38 and questioned for 15mins, Pulled over outside of Grimsby while in a minibus and questioned for 2 hours(15 of us)then released, Been hauled over the coals for refusing to break Health and Safety at work and almost sacked, Are just a few things "white privilege" has done for me.

[DarkFruitsRam7]

9 minutes ago, Jourdan said:

I just think that the impact of this current social movement will be watered down - it has been infiltrated by self-congratulatory, all-knowing, all-seeing people with a messiah complex. It has become a vanity project for the supposedly woke, who in reality show a complete lack of substance.

Oh I completely agree on that point. My Instagram feed has basically become ‘I posted a black square therefore I’m not racist.’

[GboroRam]

5 minutes ago, TramRam said:

My white privilege saw me serve time at one of our HMPs, Several visits to a Magistrates court, Unemployed for 3.5 years in the early 80s, Being whacked by OB at football matches, Being refused immigration to Canada, Told sorry this pub is full only for others to get in, Stopped on my way to Orgreave Colliery by the Met at the top of the A38 and questioned for 15mins, Pulled over outside of Grimsby while in a minibus and questioned for 2 hours(15 of us)then released, Been hauled over the coals for refusing to break Health and Safety at work and almost sacked, Are just a few things "white privilege" has done for me.

Sounds like you've had some problems throughout your life. But do you think it would have been easier, harder or the same had you been born black?

[Alph]

3 minutes ago, TramRam said:

My white privilege saw me serve time at one of our HMPs, Several visits to a Magistrates court, Unemployed for 3.5 years in the early 80s, Being whacked by OB at football matches, Being refused immigration to Canada, Told sorry this pub is full only for others to get in, Stopped on my way to Orgreave Colliery by the Met at the top of the A38 and questioned for 15mins, Pulled over outside of Grimsby while in a minibus and questioned for 2 hours(15 of us)then released, Been hauled over the coals for refusing to break Health and Safety at work and almost sacked, Are just a few things "white privilege" has done for me.

That's the thing. You being told you are privileged brings up all the injustices, social barriers you have faced. All the times life was unfair to you based on several things you are identified as. 

How can I get you to care about ethnic minorities? Well, by not insulting or offending you would be a start.

@Jourdan has nailed this for me. Put what I wanted to say so much better. That's intelligence privilege 

[i-Ram]

2 minutes ago, Alpha said:

That's the thing. You being told you are privileged brings up all the injustices, social barriers you have faced. All the times life was unfair to you based on several things you are identified as. 

How can I get you to care about ethnic minorities? Well, by not insulting or offending you would be a start.

@Jourdan has nailed this for me. Put what I wanted to say so much better. That's intelligence privilege 

I bet he’s pretty useless at plastering a ceiling. That is where you are artexulate blud, innit.

I have enjoyed reading your, and other’s viewpoints over the last 5 pages, but opted to not post as part of my campaign for reflection and calm. #DCFCFanslivesmatter

[DarkFruitsRam7]

20 minutes ago, Alpha said:

That's the thing. You being told you are privileged brings up all the injustices, social barriers you have faced. All the times life was unfair to you based on several things you are identified as. 

How can I get you to care about ethnic minorities? Well, by not insulting or offending you would be a start.

@Jourdan has nailed this for me. Put what I wanted to say so much better. That's intelligence privilege 

But isn't that sort of the recipient's problem, and not the messenger's? No doubt there's probably a better way of wording it than 'privilege', but I personally think it ultimately must fall down on the recipient of the message to think about what the message actually means.

I'm sure any English person (of any race) who has endured lots of trauma (e.g. having family die young, being bullied, suffering terrible injuries, etc) can still acknowledge that they're lucky to be born in England, as opposed to somewhere like Venezuela or Rwanda. I don't think it's too difficult to disassociate personal experiences from the baseline.

[TramRam]

24 minutes ago, GboroRam said:

Sounds like you've had some problems throughout your life. But do you think it would have been easier, harder or the same had you been born black?

Not a clue fella, That's a hypothetical question I simply can't(not wont)answer, All my postings are true, All those things I have done have been done without the help or encouragement of others, I had an education altho I didn't like school, I was fed and clothed by my parents, I was kept warm in the winter and presents were given at Xmas and Birthdays, Holidays were in very short supply, I just followed a path that took me somewhere that others chose not to go, No complaints as such, I've done very well for myself now, And love the life I have, Made more friends than enemies, That was the upbringing that makes me what I am now.

3 former Black friends...One ended up in Prison for dealing drugs, Almost died a few years ago, Another has a good career at a large company, The 3rd is a local Millionaire.

Do I regret the things I have done in the past...100%, But for me I guess I was lucky...I learned not to take on the "System" you can win some battles, But the War will be won by those who have the power.

 

One last thing...Jourdan Well done fella, If you work at life it has it's rewards.

[Stive Pesley]

28 minutes ago, DarkFruitsRam7 said:

But isn't that sort of the recipient's problem, and not the messenger's? No doubt there's probably a better way of wording it than 'privilege', but I personally think it ultimately must fall down on the recipient of the message to think about what the message actually means.

Spot on - when I hear the phrase white privelige I don't immediately get wracked with guilt and go on the defensive. Yet many people do. So there is clearly something wrong with the message that it triggers such a reaction in some people. The curse of the internet that "perception always trumps intention".

I dont think you can fix that without fixing what it is that makes people react that way. Talking about and understanding systemic inequality shouldn't be a reason to feel guilty

 

 

 

[Alph]

46 minutes ago, GboroRam said:

Sounds like you've had some problems throughout your life. But do you think it would have been easier, harder or the same had you been born black?

Are some things not made easier by being black, male, female, straight etc than others? Are there many cases where his colour would have no relevance at all? 

There are many things where gender matters more than colour. Where money matters more than sexuality. Where education matters more than nationality. 

There are so many barriers in life. How do we decide which is the noblest cause? How do we know the reason somebody is hamstrung?

[Archied]

11 hours ago, Stagtime said:

You would hope not but i have no trust at all in their system. Remember that he had 3 million less votes than Clinton last time. I believe voting should be compulsory in any democracy.  

 

?,,, how is that democracy 

[Comrade 86]

1 hour ago, Alpha said:

Looting cities and attacking police is another way the true point gets lost. Anybody thinking this is solving issues is stupid. It does the same thing that the white privilege does. It alienates people. It loses sympathy. 

Change can't come from negativity, I think we would agree?

What's 'change' got to do with it? Do you seriously suppose that folk are attacking the police because they think it will elicit change? 

And if effecting change is as simple as not looting and not using provocative slogans, why are the police using batons, tear gas and rubber bullets on peaceful protests too? 

And yes, I'd agree that no change will come from negativity because as long as folk choose to ignore a message because they find two words offensive, despite the fact that inherently, they are absolutely not, literally nothing will change. I'd venture that four hundred years of American history clearly proves that particular point. 

 

[Alph]

53 minutes ago, DarkFruitsRam7 said:

But isn't that sort of the recipient's problem, and not the messenger's? No doubt there's probably a better way of wording it than 'privilege', but I personally think it ultimately must fall down on the recipient of the message to think about what the message actually means.

I'm sure any English person (of any race) who has endured lots of trauma (e.g. having family die young, being bullied, suffering terrible injuries, etc) can still acknowledge that they're lucky to be born in England, as opposed to somewhere like Venezuela or Rwanda. I don't think it's too difficult to disassociate personal experiences from the baseline.

It's not really the recipient problem. It's all our problem because we need people to look in their lives to see if they treat everybody equally. 

Can the people in the American ghettos appreciate their privilege over the war torn lands in the East? Can a Mexican immigrant in south central LA accept his privilege over a Palestinian who's lost everything and has no way to claw it back. Who has no home to go back to. 

If we start a AsianLivesMatter movement now and approach it by talking about how everything is easier in the UK if you're black then is that a good way to make people aware of the even more obvious racial tension between a Pakistani born Muslim and the general population of the UK? 

This while thing is about making things equal between white and ethnic minorities. What about equality among the ethnic minorities? They aren't all experiencing the same thing. They arent treated equal. 

Would be insane imo to start pointing out the advantages a mixed race brit has over a Pakistani muslim. Wrong way to approach a problem and I'd expect a negative response 

[DarkFruitsRam7]

12 minutes ago, Alpha said:

It's not really the recipient problem. It's all our problem because we need people to look in their lives to see if they treat everybody equally. 

Can the people in the American ghettos appreciate their privilege over the war torn lands in the East? Can a Mexican immigrant in south central LA accept his privilege over a Palestinian who's lost everything and has no way to claw it back. Who has no home to go back to. 

If we start a AsianLivesMatter movement now and approach it by talking about how everything is easier in the UK if you're black then is that a good way to make people aware of the even more obvious racial tension between a Pakistani born Muslim and the general population of the UK? 

This while thing is about making things equal between white and ethnic minorities. What about equality among the ethnic minorities? They aren't all experiencing the same thing. They arent treated equal. 

Would be insane imo to start pointing out the advantages a mixed race brit has over a Pakistani muslim. Wrong way to approach a problem and I'd expect a negative response 

That’s a good argument.

I suppose my point wasn’t that this “I’m lucky” thing should be replicated at scale.  I’ve acknowledged that the term “white privilege” probably isn’t the best for educating people on the issues that minority face. It’s just to show that it is possible to look beyond a potentially antagonistic message and realise that there are always others who have it worse. 

Maybe it’s an approach that only works for some. I know some people deal with mental health issues by saying to themselves “Pull yourself together you ducking drama queen, others have it far worse”, whereas that mentality is destructive for others. Maybe a variety of approaches is necessary, as it’s not a one-size-fits-all thing.

However, I do still think it comes down to the fact that there are very few occasions in the Western World where being white will have any negative impact on your prospects. As @GboroRam suggested, no matter how bad your personal traumas are, it’s very unlikely that things would have been any better if you were an ethnic minority, and there’s a reasonable chance that they might have been worse.