DarkFruitsRam7 Posted June 3, 2020 Share Posted June 3, 2020 17 minutes ago, AndyinLiverpool said: The mere fact that Americans use 'liberal' and 'left' synonymously suggests they haven't got a ducking clue what 'left' actually means. I still struggle to understand the use of 'liberal' as a pejorative. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Highgate Posted June 3, 2020 Share Posted June 3, 2020 1 hour ago, maxjam said: I guess the most high profile of the Democrats is AOC, who by the way is coming under severe pressure to keep her seat this later this year. The Democrats have lurched to the left - and thats not just my opinion; https://edition.cnn.com/2019/10/24/politics/democratic-party-left-liberal-q-poll/index.html and whilst they might have gone for the soft option in Biden, there are those Democrats that won't vote for him; https://www.politico.com/news/2020/03/13/democrats-confront-a-never-biden-contingent-127438 Personally, I have said all throughout Trumps reign of terror that he is a shoe in at the next election. I think that despite everything that's going on now, its still his to lose - of course things are very fluid atm so that might change but my gut feeling is that despite everything the Democrats still aren't mainstream enough to topple him. Time will tell... Yeah, but AOC is not running President for the Democrats against Trump, nor is Bernie. The right wing of the Democratic Party won the day in the nomination process and it's Biden (almost certainly) that will he face Trump, so AOC is pretty irrelevant in the Presidential race. A Biden White House would not be a left wing White House. AOC may lose her seat but I don't think she will (bad news for her given my prediction record) and I sincerely hope she doesn't. It's surely a positive thing that there are those in the Democratic party that are becoming more left wing.....the US voter hasn't had much choice in that regard in the past. The general US public is probably far more centrist or left of centre than their Congress on a whole range of issues. It does threaten to split the Democratic Party apart.... but then maybe it should. In the Republican Party there are still some old school Republicans that are not actually insane (most of whom have been shamefully silent on Trump's shenanigans) and then there is the stark raving loony section of the Republican party, currently the dominant faction. Maybe both parties should split and give the US electorate more choice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maxjam Posted June 3, 2020 Share Posted June 3, 2020 22 minutes ago, Highgate said: Yeah, but AOC is not running President for the Democrats against Trump, nor is Bernie. The right wing of the Democratic Party won the day in the nomination process and it's Biden (almost certainly) that will he face Trump, so AOC is pretty irrelevant in the Presidential race. A Biden White House would not be a left wing White House. True, but she is part of a faction that doesn't sit well with a lot of Americans and due to her celebrity her voice carries more weight than most. People will recall her and others dressed in white, looking miserable and not clapping during a generally well received Trump speech, the Green New Deal, the Amazon fiasco etc. Furthermore will people also remember the Democrats and the leftist media on Kavanagh, Jussie Smollet, 'Russia, Russia, Russia', impeachment etc - my feeling is similar to Brexit and voting Tory, most people don't actually admit to doing it because its demonised in the press, they just quietly turn out and vote when its time. 24 minutes ago, Highgate said: It's surely a positive thing that there are those in the Democratic party that are becoming more left wing Not the the party is at odds with itself and can't present a united front. 28 minutes ago, Highgate said: The general US public is probably far more centrist or left of centre than their Congress on a whole range of issues. It does threaten to split the Democratic Party apart.... but then maybe it should. In the Republican Party there are still some old school Republicans that are not actually insane (most of whom have been shamefully silent on Trump's shenanigans) and then there is the stark raving loony section of the Republican party, currently the dominant faction. Maybe both parties should split and give the US electorate more choice. Maybe that should happen tbh (and similar should happen over here), as @AndyinLiverpool said labels are thrown around and most people don't know what they actually mean. Does AOC even belong in the same party as Biden? I've said before that I'd much rather have smaller parties with defined goals and a PR system in which your vote actually counted for something, despite the increased complications that would bring. All we have now are two parties and a media that push people into a faction with an ever widening division between them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BriggRam Posted June 3, 2020 Share Posted June 3, 2020 Because they look up to him and see a green light. It's like the blind leading the blind. Work for a racist idiot who will literally blame any and everything else apart from himself and people will start to believe it's ok to do what they do. 'When the looting starts the shooting starts' so someone steals something they're game for being shot and killed? Sounds very 1600's which is exactly where America as a whole has stayed. ya damn right they should be shot, the looters the rioters, the people beating little old lady's protecting there buisnesses and homes are duckin vermin mate...........peaceful protest for the hideous crime committed yes, the whole of AMERICA (not London) should be doing that.............. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BriggRam Posted June 3, 2020 Share Posted June 3, 2020 2 hours ago, MuespachRam said: You would actually defend him....? not defending at all, stating a fact Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndyinLiverpool Posted June 3, 2020 Share Posted June 3, 2020 2 hours ago, DarkFruitsRam7 said: I still struggle to understand the use of 'liberal' as a pejorative. This. As far as I can tell, for Americans 'liberal' seems to be shorthand for being nice to people. Which is obviously bad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Highgate Posted June 3, 2020 Share Posted June 3, 2020 1 hour ago, maxjam said: True, but she is part of a faction that doesn't sit well with a lot of Americans and due to her celebrity her voice carries more weight than most. People will recall her and others dressed in white, looking miserable and not clapping during a generally well received Trump speech, the Green New Deal, the Amazon fiasco etc. Well, that's pretty much the definition of any politician I suppose, their views don't sit well with a lot of the general population. The further from the centre they are, the more conspicuous the disparity of views between them and their detractors can be. AOC is clearly to the left of most in the US. Therefore for the Republican party supporters she is something of a bête noire. She was entitled not to applaud Trump. I don't remember the particular speech but it's hard to imagine there weren't objectionable aspects of it, even if the speech writers had done their best to be conciliatory. Her work on the Green New Deal is enormously to her credit. Placing environmental concerns at the heart of economic policy making is urgently needed. Significant and even radical changes have to be made and this was a great starting point. It was flawed of course...but it was never meant to be the finished article. I agree totally with her stance on Amazon, if all cities followed suit, there would be more money for taxpayers and less for the soon to be trillionaire Jeff Bezos ( unless he decided to offset the loss of tax exemptions and other sweeteners by decreasing his costs in some other way). The loss of jobs in her constituency is bound to hurt her come polling day however. Furthermore will people also remember the Democrats and the leftist media on Kavanagh, Jussie Smollet, 'Russia, Russia, Russia', impeachment etc - my feeling is similar to Brexit and voting Tory, most people don't actually admit to doing it because its demonised in the press, they just quietly turn out and vote when its time. I don't really have much interest in what the media was doing, but the Democrats were foolish to focus so heavily on the Russia inquiry. Yes, there were legitimate investigations to be made but it was never going to hurt Trump significantly (or maybe that's just what I believe in hindsight). The impeachment on the other hand was entirely justified, correct and necessary. And if witnesses were allowed during the trial in the Senate, then justice may have been served. Not the the party is at odds with itself and can't present a united front. Good for the US population in general that they can now choose representatives with a broader spectrum of views. But yes, it may be damaging for the Democratic Party at the moment if they don't appear unified as elections approach, it certainly was in 2016. Maybe that should happen tbh (and similar should happen over here), as @AndyinLiverpool said labels are thrown around and most people don't know what they actually mean. Does AOC even belong in the same party as Biden? No, probably not I suppose. I've said before that I'd much rather have smaller parties with defined goals and a PR system in which your vote actually counted for something, despite the increased complications that would bring. All we have now are two parties and a media that push people into a faction with an ever widening division between them. Yeah I'd agree with you on that. One mischievous question. A hypothetical US Presidential Election. Trump vs AOC. Who do you vote for?....and you have to vote for one. ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andicis Posted June 3, 2020 Share Posted June 3, 2020 Now kicking off in London. Unacceptable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cstand Posted June 3, 2020 Share Posted June 3, 2020 21 minutes ago, Andicis said: Now rioting in London. Unacceptable. Why the hell are they doing this it’s nothing to do with us but when people have been brainwashed by the left that the Tories are racist facist scum, white people have special privileges and white supremacists are out to get them sadly I am not surprised. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andicis Posted June 3, 2020 Share Posted June 3, 2020 2 minutes ago, cstand said: Why the hell are they doing this it’s nothing to do with us but when people have been brainwashed by the left & the media that the Tories are racist facist scum, white people have special privileges and white suprematist are out to get them sadly I am not surprised. The UK killed 2 unarmed men last year, 1 being the London Bridge terrorist. Why are they attacking the police? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maxjam Posted June 3, 2020 Share Posted June 3, 2020 33 minutes ago, Highgate said: One mischievous question. A hypothetical US Presidential Election. Trump vs AOC. Who do you vote for?....and you have to vote for one. ? Good post, we're not a million miles apart in a lot of our views ? As for your cheeky question you're talking to an ardent Brexiteer than couldn't bring himself to vote Tory at the recent election. Despite what some people might think around here I consider myself center left and politically homeless atm. If you are going to point a gun at my head however and force me to vote I'd go with Tory/Republican as I'm closer to them than the current left. If you separate Trump the man from the stuff that he and the Republicans have done over the past 4 years, for the average American they have actually not done to bad of a job imo - up until coronavirus, record breaking employment, record breaking numbers of minorities in employment, new trade deals, talked to N.Korea, taught Iran a lesson and focussed America's real threat, China. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cstand Posted June 3, 2020 Share Posted June 3, 2020 4 minutes ago, Andicis said: The UK killed 2 unarmed men last year, 1 being the London Bridge terrorist. Why are they attacking the police? It was madness to release the London Bridge terrorist early from prison and put peoples lives at risk. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BriggRam Posted June 3, 2020 Share Posted June 3, 2020 10 minutes ago, Andicis said: The UK killed 2 unarmed men last year, 1 being the London Bridge terrorist. Why are they attacking the police? because they are ricks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rynny Posted June 3, 2020 Share Posted June 3, 2020 48 minutes ago, cstand said: Why the hell are they doing this it’s nothing to do with us but when people have been brainwashed by the left that the Tories are racist facist scum, white people have special privileges and white supremacists are out to get them sadly I am not surprised. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sith Happens Posted June 3, 2020 Share Posted June 3, 2020 19 minutes ago, rynny said: what are they protesting about Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cstand Posted June 3, 2020 Share Posted June 3, 2020 15 minutes ago, Paul71 said: what are they protesting about All lives matter? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sith Happens Posted June 3, 2020 Share Posted June 3, 2020 8 minutes ago, cstand said: All lives matter? I didn't know, googled it and it's connected with the horrendous events in the states. I didn't add up protesting outside downing street for something triggered by events in the states. I've given up understanding the logic of violent protests so probably best I don't say more on the topic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Comrade 86 Posted June 3, 2020 Share Posted June 3, 2020 36 minutes ago, Paul71 said: what are they protesting about Sausages Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sith Happens Posted June 3, 2020 Share Posted June 3, 2020 2 minutes ago, 86 Schmokes & a Pancake said: Sausages I think you are telling porkies Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sith Happens Posted June 3, 2020 Share Posted June 3, 2020 25 minutes ago, cstand said: All lives matter? and if all lives mattered, black, white, however we choose to differentiate between ourselves do these people protesting around the world not realise they are probably now responsible for many more lost lives due to the lack of social distancing. I get what happened was horrendous but this right now seems wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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