The Politics Thread 2020

[TramRam]

10 minutes ago, AndyinLiverpool said:

Something like 70 ships returned out of about 130.

I was being a Tad tongue in cheek...but how many limped home?

[Angry Ram]

22 minutes ago, DarkFruitsRam7 said:

I agree that people shouldn’t be made to feel guilty about something that happened hundreds of years ago and which they had absolutely nothing to do with.

However, I do feel that people would be more open to listening about the subtle, subconscious discrimination that pervades society today if they were taught that the Empire wasn’t all sunshine and rainbows, and that it was extremely brutal and exploitative. People seem uncomfortable about the idea that Britain, like every single country in the world, has a dark history, and in turn are uncomfortable about any lingering legacies from that time.

Not just the British Empire though, just about every empire. Why single out the British Empire?

Them Danes have a lot to answer for as well. 
 

sorry, just read your post again and you didn’t single us. out. 

[DarkFruitsRam7]

6 minutes ago, Alpha said:

Do they know the damage they do to gaining wider support or do they not care and just see an opportunity to be bullies? 

Who knows. I imagine some are doing it out of frustration, and others are just being opportunistic Bamfords. Neither are smart or justified.

[DarkFruitsRam7]

Just now, Angry Ram said:

Not just the British Empire though, just about every empire. Why single out the British Empire?

Them Danes have a lot to answer for as well. 

I did say that every country in the world has a dark history. The majority of my post was focused on the British Empire because the discussion was centred on UK-specific issues.

[Angry Ram]

Just now, DarkFruitsRam7 said:

I did say that every country in the world has a dark history. The majority of my post was focused on the British Empire because the discussion was centred on UK-specific issues.

Yeah I just edited my original post. 
 

[Alph]

50 minutes ago, DarkFruitsRam7 said:

Another interesting resource on race issues in the UK. Some of the stuff in there is open to interpretation (e.g. treatment of Dianne Abbot, Meghan Markle, etc.) but some of it contains cold, hard stats that seem to be undeniable examples of some level of institutional racism:

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1J7_WqCpsB083mq0H6eClxKKq_9PcYZKrxpiF6_Mi--Y/mobilebasic?fbclid=IwAR2BB58HwqgRAN-270BYOPdfwrBsm2NnhK-2DXpBfVpG98HgKu9J71OXmHk 

Out of interest, was anyone taught the gritty details of the British Empire at school? I don't think we ever really looked at the more horrific aspects.

Some of this has massive flaws. 

The prison system. Again, deprived areas = crime. Crime attracts police. 

I'm assuming most of the prisoners committed a crime? The only solution I can think of is not to punish crime? 

Another one. There are no black MPs in Ireland, Scotland, Wales. I mean there's an obvious answer. 

There are other massively flawed points and curious statistics. But there are some alarming facts too. 

Britain isn't perfect. I would much rather see things like this put forward than the white privilege stuff. 

Good find. It's certainly embarrassing some of it. Especially the Frank Crichlow part. I did a bit of reading on him. Terrible harassment 

[Highgate]

2 hours ago, maxjam said:

Good post, we're not a million miles apart in a lot of our views ? There was plenty of common ground in the last post that's true, we will both just have to live with that  ?

As for your cheeky question you're talking to an ardent Brexiteer than couldn't bring himself to vote Tory at the recent election.  Despite what some people might think around here I consider myself center left and politically homeless atm. 

If you are going to point a gun at my head however and force me to vote I'd go with Tory/Republican as I'm closer to them than the current left.  I am not sure anyone that would choose Trump over AOC is left of centre.  Although not being able to vote for Boris was impressive under the circumstances.

If you separate Trump the man from the stuff that he and the Republicans have done over the past 4 years, for the average American they have actually not done to bad of a job imo - up until coronavirus, record breaking employment (True, the economy was doing well continuing the surge that had started under Obama, although the national debt he promised to eradicate is still climbing ever higher, and the biggest beneficiaries from the boom are the super wealthy) record breaking numbers of minorities in employment (just a consequence of the record breaking employment numbers), new trade deals, (I'm not sure they are improvements on the old ones or who they benefit the most) talked to N.Korea (I give him credit for this, although it was futile so far, N.Korea now have their bomb), taught Iran a lesson {created a problem by pulling out of the nuclear deal, had the dangerous Soleimani killed and nearly started a war doing it.  Soleimani will simply be replaced by someone equally dangerous and enmity will be increased between the two countries, benefiting the hard-liners in Iran who were starting to feel internal pressure from those who wished for reforms. and focussed America's real threat, China (we have no idea how that deal was going to work out).  One thing missing from the analysis of Trump, his complete disregard for the environment. He seems quite happy to trash it for current and future generations as long as it benefits the economy in the short term.  Unforgivable.  For that alone he needs to lose the election in November.

[DarkFruitsRam7]

7 minutes ago, Alpha said:

Some of this has massive flaws. 

The prison system. Again, deprived areas = crime. Crime attracts police. 

I'm assuming most of the prisoners committed a crime? The only solution I can think of is not to punish crime? 

Another one. There are no black MPs in Ireland, Scotland, Wales. I mean there's an obvious answer. 

There are other massively flawed points and curious statistics. But there are some alarming facts too. 

Britain isn't perfect. I would much rather see things like this put forward than the white privilege stuff. 

Good find. It's certainly embarrassing some of it. Especially the Frank Crichlow part. I did a bit of reading on him. Terrible harassment 

Yeah I did acknowledge that there are things open to interpretation, although I don’t think they’re completely unrelated to race (without wishing to repeat the discussion of how minority groups generally face more challenges when trying to move upwards).

There are also stats that are plain wrong on there (Oxford did admit some black students between 2015 and 2017 - the article cited mentioned how some colleges at the university failed at admit a single black student). 

But yeah, there are some indisputable examples in there. I just wish they had been put above the Diane Abbott stuff so that the message isn’t diluted.

[Van der MoodHoover]

13 minutes ago, DarkFruitsRam7 said:

I did say that every country in the world has a dark history. The majority of my post was focused on the British Empire because the discussion was centred on UK-specific issues.

Racism!

 

To the streets........?

[DarkFruitsRam7]

Just now, Van der MoodHoover said:

Racism!

 

To the streets........?

Not the time, MoodHoover, not the time!

I’ll be having words on Saturday.

[Van der MoodHoover]

5 minutes ago, DarkFruitsRam7 said:

Not the time, MoodHoover, not the time!

I’ll be having words on Saturday.

Oh fie and tish.

The thread has been descending into a truly depressing place so twas but a feeble attempt at levity........

[DarkFruitsRam7]

4 minutes ago, Van der MoodHoover said:

Oh fie and tish.

The thread has been descending into a truly depressing place so twas but a feeble attempt at levity........

To be fair, I actually think the discussion has generally been both interesting and civilised.

If you’re looking for happiness, I’d recommend leaving this thread and never coming back! I only dip in infrequently, as I tend to find myself getting bogged down in it when I do visit.

[cstand]

34 minutes ago, Angry Ram said:

Not just the British Empire though, just about every empire. Why single out the British Empire?

Them Danes have a lot to answer for as well. 
 

sorry, just read your post again and you didn’t single us. out. 

That's right the Danes sailed up the river Trent with 200 long boats & 20,000 men in 1016 and invaded Gainsborough which became the capital of England for a while. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cnut_the_Great's_invasion_of_England.

 

[1of4]

3 hours ago, maxjam said:

Good post, we're not a million miles apart in a lot of our views ?

As for your cheeky question you're talking to an ardent Brexiteer than couldn't bring himself to vote Tory at the recent election.  Despite what some people might think around here I consider myself center left and politically homeless atm. 

If you are going to point a gun at my head however and force me to vote I'd go with Tory/Republican as I'm closer to them than the current left.

If you separate Trump the man from the stuff that he and the Republicans have done over the past 4 years, for the average American they have actually not done to bad of a job imo - up until coronavirus, record breaking employment, record breaking numbers of minorities in employment, new trade deals, talked to N.Korea, taught Iran a lesson and focussed America's real threat, China.

Is this the same Trump and the same GOP that's trying to scrap Obamacare. If successful it will cause millions of Americans to have no health care. Is it the same Trump and GOP  that's given billions of dollars in tax cuts to the rich. That  during the coronavirus crisis have given billions of dollars to large companies.

[maxjam]

2 minutes ago, 1of4 said:

Is this the same Trump and the same GOP that's trying to scrap Obamacare. If successful it will cause millions of Americans to have no health care. Is it the same Trump and GOP  that's given billions of dollars in tax cuts to the rich. That  during the coronavirus crisis have given billions of dollars to large companies.

Yup, didn't say I agreed with everything they have done but was 'forced' to pick a side so played along and briefly explained my reasoning.

IMO neither choice should win the Presidency, but one has to.  Currently and despite everything, for better or for worse I still think that is going to be Trump - 6 months to go though and who could have predicted everything that has happened in the first 6 months of this year...

[maxjam]

45 minutes ago, Highgate said:

4 hours ago, maxjam said:

Good post, we're not a million miles apart in a lot of our views ? There was plenty of common ground in the last post that's true, we will both just have to live with that  ?

As for your cheeky question you're talking to an ardent Brexiteer than couldn't bring himself to vote Tory at the recent election.  Despite what some people might think around here I consider myself center left and politically homeless atm. 

If you are going to point a gun at my head however and force me to vote I'd go with Tory/Republican as I'm closer to them than the current left.  I am not sure anyone that would choose Trump over AOC is left of centre.  Although not being able to vote for Boris was impressive under the circumstances.

If you separate Trump the man from the stuff that he and the Republicans have done over the past 4 years, for the average American they have actually not done to bad of a job imo - up until coronavirus, record breaking employment (True, the economy was doing well continuing the surge that had started under Obama, although the national debt he promised to eradicate is still climbing ever higher, and the biggest beneficiaries from the boom are the super wealthy) record breaking numbers of minorities in employment (just a consequence of the record breaking employment numbers), new trade deals, (I'm not sure they are improvements on the old ones or who they benefit the most) talked to N.Korea (I give him credit for this, although it was futile so far, N.Korea now have their bomb), taught Iran a lesson {created a problem by pulling out of the nuclear deal, had the dangerous Soleimani killed and nearly started a war doing it.  Soleimani will simply be replaced by someone equally dangerous and enmity will be increased between the two countries, benefiting the hard-liners in Iran who were starting to feel internal pressure from those who wished for reforms. and focussed America's real threat, China (we have no idea how that deal was going to work out).  One thing missing from the analysis of Trump, his complete disregard for the environment. He seems quite happy to trash it for current and future generations as long as it benefits the economy in the short term.  Unforgivable.  For that alone he needs to lose the election in November.

Another good post and I entirely agree about the environment ?

I think the key difference between me and others on this forum is that I can separate what Trump says (often vile) to what Trump does (a lot of which have benefited the average American).  There will be key points we disagree on, similar to the Tory/Labour debate over here but I feel that the average American is closer to Trump's economics than The Green New Deal etc.

[Wolfie]

I wish Clive Myrie could just report on the news without having to turn everything into poo poetry. Does my head in.

[Archied]

9 hours ago, 86 Schmokes & a Pancake said:

No, my argument was that we should see beyond personal differences as best we can. Obviously that's not always easy as shown by people's thoughts on this thread regarding the white privilege slogan. No disrespect Archie but I'm going to leave it there. This debate has been done to death so many times now on this forum and nothing ever changes.

That's not directed at you by the way, I'm just saying I've posted on the slogan half a dozen times and I'm not sure how to make my thoughts any clearer than I already have. Some haven't even grasped I'm talking about the US not the UK, so I think I'll just leave it be. 

#alllivesmatter

No disrespect taken , when all said and done if I could wave a magic wand and racism would be gone I would wave it like a loon as I’m sure you would too and for that matter most people I know ,, 

I never throw stuff out in debate to try to be a smart ass , I hope to challenge myself and others way of seeing things , I know I get more from finding I’m wrong which happens often

[jimmyp]

I was having a conversation with a colleague  today about how the word racist is currently used.

 

Reniqua Allen wrote an article for the Guardian and New York Times in 2013 that I thought some may find interesting.

 

“Maybe if we stop the superfluous use of the "R" word we can all pause for a minute and admit to certain biases and prejudices without feeling like we're the lowest of the low and begin to work towards achieving real racial justice.”

 

“Today the word racist, and the shaming that goes along with it, has turned too political. It is also too much about individual prejudice, when in reality, racial justice is something that we all should be fighting for together.”

 

Full article 

 

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/nov/07/time-to-retire-the-word-racist

[1of4]

10 minutes ago, maxjam said:

Yup, didn't say I agreed with everything they have done but was 'forced' to pick a side so played along and briefly explained my reasoning.

IMO neither choice should win the Presidency, but one has to.  Currently and despite everything, for better or for worse I still think that is going to be Trump - 6 months to go though and who could have predicted everything that has happened in the first 6 months of this year...

Yep, I can see Trump winning another term. Not sure how so many Americans can fall for his lies. But I suppose we believed Johnson and voted for brexit.