The Politics Thread 2020

[Highgate]

34 minutes ago, maxjam said:

Just googled it, first article I looked at was from that notorious far right-wing website, Reuters.  It was 56% back in 2004;

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-fathers-idUSN0419185720070614

If you want more up-to-date info look for it yourself, I'm sick of being repeatedly called far-right either outright or by association by just because I'm willing to look at all sides of difficult subjects.  Anymore questions?  You can probably find my answer in previous posts

 

56% is quite a reduction from almost 75%.   Is the reported 56% still getting confused between simply unmarried and actually a parent raising a child on their own, ?  How involved are those 56% in the raising of their children....or have they completely absconded without any forwarding address ? 

[Alph]

56 minutes ago, Anon said:

Look up a guy called Tony Timpa.

Just looked it up. 

I don't know what to think anymore. I don't know how you can have a rational/logical discussion beyond friends/quite corners of the internet. 

For any stat like number of black people shot by police there is so much to consider.

To mention where the highest crime rates are, where the most police resources are spent, where are police most often assaulted/injured...

It would just be impossible to ask these questions and not be branded a racist. 

Even to try to explain why deprived areas might have large numbers of non white citizens could backfire. 

There's definitely more to do but I can't see how it will be done when there is so much tension. 

Who's going to turn around and start talking about the what races are committing the most crimes? You can't. You can discuss what races are being arrested. 

Are people of ethnic minorities committing a disproportionate number of crimes? 

You can't ask them questions without undoing a lot of progress we've made. It would be foolish.

I think I might jump out the thread for bit. I've droned on more than enough and by constantly pushing my opinion I feel like I'll end up sounding more like a white supremacist! I have a couple of Asian Muslim friends and I do think that they are received differently to me. So banging on about my race seems inappropriate. But at the same time I just think there's an element of the white male being so dominant that he should be immune to anything fired at him. 

Get some boxing and football back!!

[Stive Pesley]

1 minute ago, Highgate said:

56% is quite a reduction from almost 75%.   Is the reported 56% still getting confused between simply unmarried and actually a parent raising a child on their own, ?  How involved are those 56% in the raising of their children....or have they completely absconded without any forwarding address ? 

Yeah and the 2019 figures I was encouraged to look up show it is now 46%, so go figure

Your other questions....well - it's all just a maelstrom of circular factors isn't it?

Poverty, leads to crime, leads to prison, leads to absent fathers, leads to messed up kids, leads to under-achievement in education, leads to poverty and repeat. Breaking out of that cycle is far harder for communities that have been systemically discriminated against for decades/centuries

But the key thing is to make up an exaggerated stat and hint that it's their own fault for not trying hard enough

 

[maxjam]

29 minutes ago, SchtivePesley said:

I looked up the latest US Census Bureau figures

 

so it's 46% of black children reported as living with mother only.

Which is a LONG way from your unsubstiated blithe 75% comment. You understand that words have consequences? Not suggesting you did it deliberately, but it's archetypal fake news. Someone will have read that and believed it - and be repeating it elsewhere

Okay, final reply to you for today...

Words do have context and I am happy to be corrected when I am wrong.  I could also argue that your unsubstantiated blithe 25% figure was also a misleading statistic, used falsely push your narrative...

In my defence however, and after some further research, the 70% figure I had in mind was this one;

https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2013/jul/29/don-lemon/cnns-don-lemon-says-more-72-percent-african-americ/

So maybe not so blithe after all...

And whilst current data does show Black single parent families hovering around the 50% mark, it is also significantly higher than White and Hispanic families;

https://www.census.gov/content/dam/Census/library/visualizations/time-series/demo/families-and-households/ch-2-3-4.pdf

And where children do have 2 parents, Black parents are significantly less likely to be married;

https://www.census.gov/content/dam/Census/library/visualizations/time-series/demo/families-and-households/fm-2.pdf

We are straying far from current affairs now however and into the realms of racism so this will hopefully be my last post. Although @DarkFruitsRam7 post a few before this one is crying out to be debunked... ? 

[maxjam]

4 minutes ago, SchtivePesley said:

Poverty, leads to crime, leads to prison, leads to absent fathers, leads to messed up kids, leads to under-achievement in education, leads to poverty and repeat. Breaking out of that cycle is far harder for communities that have been systemically discriminated against for decades/centuries

I'll reply to this as its a different topic to racism...

Poverty leads to etc, etc, leads to poverty.  So a circular argument then?

What would happen if we lifted people out of poverty as I've suggested many times rather than  hinting that its their own fault ??

Less poverty > less crime > less prison > increased family unit > better upbringing > better education > increased success > increased wealth > less likely to be shot by police > less likely to cause arguments about systemic racism

[Comrade 86]

54 minutes ago, SchtivePesley said:

I looked up the latest US Census Bureau figures

 

so it's 46% of black children reported as living with mother only.

Which is a LONG way from your unsubstiated blithe 75% comment. You understand that words have consequences? Not suggesting you did it deliberately, but it's archetypal fake news. Someone will have read that and believed it - and be repeating it elsewhere

Well 46% - 75%, what's a few percent between pals? Honestly, you couldn't make it up...

Oh, hang on! ?

[maxjam]

2 minutes ago, 86 Schmokes & a Pancake said:

Well 46% - 75%, what's a few percent between pals? Honestly, you couldn't make it up...

Oh, hang on! ?

Yup, I had the figure for something else in mind.

Always happy to admit and correct errors ?

[jimmyp]

Just for reference when I googled 

“single parent black families us”

The following was The first search result. 

 

 

[Stive Pesley]

6 minutes ago, jimmyp said:

Just for reference when I googled 

“single parent black families us”

The following was The first search result. 

 

 

Yep - which Max has already conceded is a different stat to the one he was talking about

Mind you, I'm as white as they come and of me and my friends I think we have more kids born out of wedlock than in. Getting married is so old-fashioned these days...

 

40 minutes ago, maxjam said:

poverty leads to etc, etc, leads to poverty.  So a circular argument then?

What would happen if we lifted people out of poverty as I've suggested many times rather than  hinting that its their own fault ??

Less poverty > less crime > less prison > increased family unit > better upbringing > better education > increased success > increased wealth > less likely to be shot by police > less likely to cause arguments about systemic racism

You've got it - the poverty part is the piece of the cycle that needs to be broken out of. But there are no easy answers there.

Wouldn't defeating the systemic racism in the system would give more opportunities for black families to be lifted out of poverty?

It would certainly give more opportunities than trying to argue that the systemic racism doesn't even exist!

 

 

 

 

[maxjam]

15 minutes ago, jimmyp said:

Just for reference when I googled 

“single parent black families us”

The following was The first search result.

I find it ironic that due to the sensitivity of the subject I have tried to link stats and articles for all the arguments I've made.  The one time I don't google a link, I recall a figure that may or may not be true.  Sods law lol ?

Anyway, for the sake of accuracy the 70% figure I initially thought I recalled was the one I mentioned in my correction and the stat you linked - but of course parents don't have to be married to have children.  The 46% is the actual number of single parent households.

However looking again at the data @SchtivePesley provided there are 5635 one parent families compared to 4685 two parent families.  Not entirely sure that equates to 46% either...

[Comrade 86]

14 minutes ago, jimmyp said:

Just for reference when I googled 

“single parent black families us”

The following was The first search result. 

 

 

Yeah, it'd be a really useful 'reference' if it had anything to do with the one Maxjam cited.

[Comrade 86]

2 minutes ago, maxjam said:

I find it ironic that due to the sensitivity of the subject I have tried to link stats and articles for all the arguments I've made.  The one time I don't google a link I recall a figure that may or may not be true.  Sods law lol ?

Anyway, for the sake of accuracy the 70% figure I initially thought I recalled was the one I mentioned in my correction and the stat you linked - but of course parents don't have to be married to have children.  The 46% is the actual number of single parent households.

However looking again at the data @SchtivePesley provided there are 5635 one parent families compared to 4685 two parent families.  Not entirely sure that equates to 46% either...

All you stattos aside, it's hard to fathom what parentage has to do with a cop kneeling on a guy's neck for 9 minutes, a full 3 minutes of which were after he'd already managed to suffocate him. Just seems like a load of fluff being chucked around to muddy the waters yet again to me.

[Stive Pesley]

26 minutes ago, maxjam said:

However looking again at the data @SchtivePesley provided there are 5635 one parent families compared to 4685 two parent families.  Not entirely sure that equates to 46% either...

Yep - you're right, but I missed off the 3rd set of columns for clarity based on what was being discussed - the missing kids are those who live with "other relatives" (which is mostly grandparents)

 

[TramRam]

44 minutes ago, SchtivePesley said:

 

Wouldn't defeating the systemic racism in the system would give more opportunities for black families to be lifted out of poverty?

 

 

 

 

 

Can I ask you a question...but the answer aint going to be easy.

How do you lift Black people out of poverty without alienating the poverty stricken white population?, Do you give them a job and if so where are these jobs, Do you give them more social payments that takes them out of poverty and for those extra payments you make them earn it by working in the community, Do you force an education on them and not leave school at 13/14 years of age, Do you clean the areas of drug problems, Do you clean the social depravation where they live.

Edit

Also cleaning up the 100s or 1000s of black gangs that are killing each other.

I believe there's enough wealth in the USA to make a start, But it takes brave Politicians and the population to look where they are now...and change.

South Africa had a revolution, How has that worked out?

[jimmyp]

“Yeah, it'd be a really useful 'reference' if it had anything to do with the one Maxjam cited.”

 

Many people find it hard to discuss sensitive topics for fear of receiving a label.

Max unfortunately referenced incorrect statistics and it had originally been suggested that this may of been because they came from a far right wing source. 

I was merely trying to help others visualise how easy statistics can be mistakenly misused.

I would hate for many to be left out of the discussion on race for fear of being labelled sympathetic to or blindly supporting the far right.

And yes I’m fully aware that is not what Schtive was trying to achieve. 

[Highgate]

1 hour ago, SchtivePesley said:

Yeah and the 2019 figures I was encouraged to look up show it is now 46%, so go figure

Your other questions....well - it's all just a maelstrom of circular factors isn't it?

Poverty, leads to crime, leads to prison, leads to absent fathers, leads to messed up kids, leads to under-achievement in education, leads to poverty and repeat. Breaking out of that cycle is far harder for communities that have been systemically discriminated against for decades/centuries

But the key thing is to make up an exaggerated stat and hint that it's their own fault for not trying hard enough

I couldn't agree more.  When talking about what extent black people are still suffering racism in the US, it's useful to remember just how severe the racism was in the past (even post slavery) and that has undoubtedly left that community with a collective wealth deficit along with all the problems associated with poverty. 

During the Democratic Primaries for the 2020 Presidential Election, some of the candidates were taking seriously the idea of Reparations for Slavery (and presumably subsequent racist policies too).  A controversial proposal for some and it would present an absolute minefield of problems to implement, but it seems it's an idea that gaining momentum in the US. 

[Comrade 86]

7 minutes ago, jimmyp said:

“Yeah, it'd be a really useful 'reference' if it had anything to do with the one Maxjam cited.”

 

Many people find it hard to discuss sensitive topics for fear of receiving a label.

Max unfortunately referenced incorrect statistics and it had originally been suggested that this may of been because they came from a far right wing source. 

I was merely trying to help others visualise how easy statistics can be mistakenly misused.

I would hate for many to be left out of the discussion on race for fear of being labelled sympathetic to or blindly supporting the far right.

And yes I’m fully aware that is not what Schtive was trying to achieve. 

Fair enough ?

[Stive Pesley]

29 minutes ago, TramRam said:

Can I ask you a question...but the answer aint going to be easy.

How do you lift Black people out of poverty without alienating the poverty stricken white population?

It's a good question, and it probably wasn't clear, but in no way was i suggesting we only lift the black population out of poverty. I was talking about the poverty cycle being ubiquitous - but harder for the black population to lift themselves out of poverty because of the systemic racism in the system (and therefore harder for any government to achieve it).

Universal Basic Income might be a start. Got to be worth a try.

 

 

 

[Andicis]

9 minutes ago, SchtivePesley said:

Universal Basic Income might be a start. Got to be worth a try.

It's a shame Andrew Yang wasn't given more time in the US debates to talk about that, he was proposing UBI as his main platform. A lot of sense to it.

[TramRam]

7 minutes ago, SchtivePesley said:

It's a good question, and it probably wasn't clear, but in no way was i suggesting we only lift the black population out of poverty. I was talking about the poverty cycle being ubiquitous - but harder for the black population to lift themselves out of poverty because of the systemic racism in the system (and therefore harder for any government to achieve it).

Universal Basic Income might be a start. Got to be worth a try.

 

 

 

Thanks for the reply.

Starting with Universal Basic Income could work for those who find life financially very difficult, Have money, spend money, Economically communities are better off, White goods shops open, Furniture shops open, Bigger supermarkets, Healthier Children, Health and Care on the up, Less crime, Families not breaking up, Children now see an opportunity to progress, Depravity eradicated...Sounds OK to me.

There'll be some who will find a fault...not on here but in the USA.