The Politics Thread 2020

[FindernRam]

11 hours ago, Ramslad1992 said:

Agreed, I'm 27 and vote every single time I can, I know many my age don't but my dad taught me that if I don't vote i can't complain. Many people round the world can't vote so it's a privilege, if those idiot choose to vote for that orange idiot that's their choice and they are entitled to it.

Well done for using your vote.

I think the issue these days for many people is that as the two main parties polarise, many people feel that they don't represent them anymore so neither deserve their vote. There is (in my view) no proper middle ground party anymore, and I don't believe coalition works in peace time.

Social media is not helping here either with trolls everywhere on every subject under the sun. So even timid policies are trashed by Twitter. 

[Archied]

10 hours ago, 86 Schmokes & a Pancake said:

Of course they should, but then do we ignore the message because we don't respect the person conveying it? For the last time, that's the point I'm making. If we choose to dismiss any notion put forward by people we don't like, we're lost. Cynicism will kill us far quicker than poorly constructed slogans.

That’s a very interesting question and the simple answer is yes we are more suspicious and the message is diluted ,

case in point tommy Robinson ,,, until recently I kept an open mind because I saw a lot of miss reported stuff , edited interviews where things said were twisted , de platforming and the prohibition of anyone being allowing to grow, learn and change 

now having seen a video of his recent /current behaviour and attitude posted on here I am very suspicious of any message from his mouth ,,,,

is that wrong ? 

[Alph]

1 minute ago, 86 Schmokes & a Pancake said:

What's 'change' got to do with it? Do you seriously suppose that folk are attacking the police because they think it will elicit change? 

And if effecting change is as simple as not looting and not using provocative slogans, why are the police using batons, tear gas and rubber bullets on peaceful protests too? 

And yes, I'd agree that no change will come from negativity because as long as folk choose to ignore a message because they find two words offensive, despite the fact that inherently, they are absolutely not, literally nothing will change. I'd venture that four hundred years of American history clearly proves that particular point. 

 

I would have thought some are, yes? Is it not a way to show unhappiness at the way society restricts them? 

I don't understand your second paragraph. I don't think you make change by looting but by doing other things. Like Britain has in my lifetime. By not having a racist, xenophobic Bamford as a president 

Well you might not find the words offensive but others do. Or if not offensive it draws a defensive response. Read what Jourdan put. Puts it better than I could. There are many words that only become offensive if they are used in a certain way. 

I like many others am not racist. I can see the problems. I see that Britain can do more for its ethnic minorities. But start telling me I'm white privileged and I will point to times where being white hasn't helped or hindered. To times where being a man has. Or being young or poor has hindered. I can see times where people benefit from being black or female or rich. 

That's the response you get from calling people white privileged. 

Why do it? 

Why can I not be offended that my skin colour is causing me to be judged? 

It is not essential to solving a problem. 

400 years of American history proves that they don't treat all races equally. I'd rather not point out white privilege any more than support black supremacy. I'd rather they focused on raising the ethnic minorities up in positive ways. 

The changes in 50 years here are something to be proud of. I hope we continue to progress in the way we have and eradicate the racial and religious barriers that exist. 

But the answer to seeing a day when Asian Muslims aren't given sideways glances in our cities isn't talking about the privileges of Black and white people. Its surely about finding positive ways to include them and increase our understanding.

[DarkFruitsRam7]

An interesting article on some of the everyday issues that minorities face in the UK. Some of the responses are based on opinion, and can therefore perhaps be questioned, but the stats on shoplifting accusations and being mistaken for waiters, etc, is quite surprising and demonstrative of the unconscious bias that we may have.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2018/dec/02/revealed-the-stark-evidence-of-everyday-racial-bias-in-britain

[Alph]

19 minutes ago, DarkFruitsRam7 said:

That’s a good argument.

I suppose my point wasn’t that this “I’m lucky” thing should be replicated at scale.  I’ve acknowledged that the term “white privilege” probably isn’t the best for educating people on the issues that minority face. It’s just to show that it is possible to look beyond a potentially antagonistic message and realise that there are always others who have it worse. 

Maybe it’s an approach that only works for some. I know some people deal with mental health issues by saying to themselves “Pull yourself together you ducking drama queen, others have it far worse”, whereas that mentality is destructive for others. Maybe a variety of approaches is necessary, as it’s not a one-size-fits-all thing.

However, I do still think it comes down to the fact that there are very few occasions in the Western World where being white will have any negative impact on your prospects. As @GboroRam suggested, no matter how bad your personal traumas are, it’s very unlikely that things would have been any better if you were an ethnic minority, and there’s a reasonable chance that they might have been worse.

That mental health thing is something I thought about bringing up.

"You've got a big house, good job, no debts. What have you got to be depressed about" 

You could say he's privileged and that he's in a better position to take care of his mental health. Would be true. But that attitude has no positivity attached. It's asking people to beat themselves up with it. 

Just show love! Understand the next man's plight. Educate ourselves on the topic and find some positive solutions 

Which we do thankfully nowadays

[Alph]

Just now, DarkFruitsRam7 said:

An interesting article on some of the everyday issues that minorities face in the UK. Some of the responses are based on opinion, and can therefore perhaps be questioned, but the stats on shoplifting accusations and being mistaken for waiters, etc, is quite surprising and demonstrative of the unconscious bias that we may have.

Yep, and proves we have a way to go. No doubt. 

[Comrade 86]

7 minutes ago, Archied said:

That’s a very interesting question and the simple answer is yes we are more suspicious and the message is diluted ,

case in point tommy Robinson ,,, until recently I kept an open mind because I saw a lot of miss reported stuff , edited interviews where things said were twisted , de platforming and the prohibition of anyone being allowing to grow, learn and change 

now having seen a video of his recent /current behaviour and attitude posted on here I am very suspicious of any message from his mouth ,,,,

is that wrong ? 

I'm sure Tommy would tell you it's wrong. Whether he could successfully argue that it's comparable is a different matter.

Perhaps it's unreasonable to expect people to focus on the message. Reading these recent posts I'm beginning to think it's unrealistic at very least. And so it goes on...

Anyway, I'd committed to ignoring contentious debate but have got sucked in again!

I'll politely recuse myself at this point.

 

[DarkFruitsRam7]

4 minutes ago, Alpha said:

Yep, and proves we have a way to go. No doubt. 

Sorry, I forgot to actually attach the article! I've edited the original post, but here it is if you're interested in the specifics: 

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2018/dec/02/revealed-the-stark-evidence-of-everyday-racial-bias-in-britain

[Archied]

11 minutes ago, 86 Schmokes & a Pancake said:

I'm sure Tommy would tell you it's wrong. Whether he could successfully argue that it's comparable is a different matter.

Perhaps it's unreasonable to expect people to focus on the message. Reading these recent posts I'm beginning to think it's unrealistic at very least. And so it goes on...

Anyway, I'd committed to ignoring contentious debate but have got sucked in again!

I'll politely recuse myself at this point.

 

Nothing contentious, what we hear from people we respect carries more weight for us and we are open to hear and explore it whether we agree with it or not , your argument was perhaps that shouldn’t be the case ? 

[Highgate]

13 hours ago, maxjam said:

Personal opinion on the Democrats.  They make Corbyn look right wing ?

Which Democrats?  I can't think of any Democratic Presidents or Presidential Candidates that were genuinely left-wing like Corbyn was.  Biden is certainly not left-wing. 

[Comrade 86]

31 minutes ago, Archied said:

Nothing contentious, what we hear from people we respect carries more weight for us and we are open to hear and explore it whether we agree with it or not , your argument was perhaps that shouldn’t be the case ? 

No, my argument was that we should see beyond personal differences as best we can. Obviously that's not always easy as shown by people's thoughts on this thread regarding the white privilege slogan. No disrespect Archie but I'm going to leave it there. This debate has been done to death so many times now on this forum and nothing ever changes.

That's not directed at you by the way, I'm just saying I've posted on the slogan half a dozen times and I'm not sure how to make my thoughts any clearer than I already have. Some haven't even grasped I'm talking about the US not the UK, so I think I'll just leave it be. 

#alllivesmatter

[MaltRam]

On 02/06/2020 at 07:39, Anon said:

I'm sure someone mentioned this earlier, but it's not that long ago that this country suffered nationwide riots and looting because the police had the temerity to shoot an armed drug dealer. I'm afraid we're just as stupid and easily manipulated as the Americans.

Weeelll. No. Not the same frequency or scale of response. 

That's like saying the US may have Alaska, but we had an inch of snow last year too.

[maxjam]

38 minutes ago, Highgate said:

Which Democrats?  I can't think of any Democratic Presidents or Presidential Candidates that were genuinely left-wing like Corbyn was.  Biden is certainly not left-wing. 

I guess the most high profile of the Democrats is AOC, who by the way is coming under severe pressure to keep her seat this later this year.

The Democrats have lurched to the left - and thats not just my opinion;

https://edition.cnn.com/2019/10/24/politics/democratic-party-left-liberal-q-poll/index.html

and whilst they might have gone for the soft option in Biden, there are those Democrats that won't vote for him;

https://www.politico.com/news/2020/03/13/democrats-confront-a-never-biden-contingent-127438

Personally, I have said all throughout Trumps reign of terror that he is a shoe in at the next election.  I think that despite everything that's going on now, its still his to lose - of course things are very fluid atm so that might change but my gut feeling is that despite everything the Democrats still aren't mainstream enough to topple him.  Time will tell...

[Comrade 86]

23 minutes ago, maxjam said:

Personally, I have said all throughout Trumps reign of terror that he is a shoe in at the next election.  I think that despite everything that's going on now, its still his to lose

Really? Biden now now an odds on favourite with every UK bookmaker. Best be having your mortgage on Trump I suppose, given your assertion it's 'still his to lose'.

https://www.oddschecker.com/politics/us-politics/us-presidential-election-2020/winner

[Anon]

2 minutes ago, 86 Schmokes & a Pancake said:

Really? Biden now now an odds on favourite with every UK bookmaker. Best be having your mortgage on Trump I suppose, given your assertion it's 'still his to lose'.

https://www.oddschecker.com/politics/us-politics/us-presidential-election-2020/winner

He was 8 to 1 a week or two before the last election.

[Comrade 86]

4 minutes ago, Anon said:

He was 8 to 1 a week or two before the last election.

He was as big as 40/1 mid-February. 

[jono]

2 hours ago, Archied said:

That’s a very interesting question and the simple answer is yes we are more suspicious and the message is diluted ,

case in point tommy Robinson ,,, until recently I kept an open mind because I saw a lot of miss reported stuff , edited interviews where things said were twisted , de platforming and the prohibition of anyone being allowing to grow, learn and change 

now having seen a video of his recent /current behaviour and attitude posted on here I am very suspicious of any message from his mouth ,,,,

is that wrong ? 

Not one bit. I try to be the same, not always successfully. I've lost count of the number of times I have seen competent looking social media posts that claim to present "facts" but are really just personal views dressed up. Some of the character assassinations and spun "truths" you see are dreadful. I also detest the no platforming thing .. we end up in an echo chamber with only those who see one view. If you disagree then, either you aren't heard or you are branded. I want to hear speakers speak and then form my own opinion. I am uncomfortable with proxies telling me what this or that person stands for. I used to, but my faith in our news reporting dwindles by the day because the fact versus editorial balance isn't right. You search for a decent summary but end up with spouters of polarised views bereft of nuance and honest analysis. 

[maxjam]

19 minutes ago, 86 Schmokes & a Pancake said:

Really? Biden now now an odds on favourite with every UK bookmaker. Best be having your mortgage on Trump I suppose, given your assertion it's 'still his to lose'.

https://www.oddschecker.com/politics/us-politics/us-presidential-election-2020/winner

There's a long way to go between now and November for both Trump and Biden - I quite like the odd flutter but won't be putting any money on Trump even though I still think he'll win comfortably atm.

Getting back onto AOC for a moment, she faces a primary later this month, not only is she up against some strong, moderate competition but she is also more of a progressive internet star than a local force for good;

https://www.foxnews.com/politics/aoc-removed-union-backed-progressive-party-ballot-line-new-york

[AndyinLiverpool]

1 hour ago, maxjam said:

I guess the most high profile of the Democrats is AOC, who by the way is coming under severe pressure to keep her seat this later this year.

The Democrats have lurched to the left - and thats not just my opinion;

https://edition.cnn.com/2019/10/24/politics/democratic-party-left-liberal-q-poll/index.html

and whilst they might have gone for the soft option in Biden, there are those Democrats that won't vote for him;

https://www.politico.com/news/2020/03/13/democrats-confront-a-never-biden-contingent-127438

Personally, I have said all throughout Trumps reign of terror that he is a shoe in at the next election.  I think that despite everything that's going on now, its still his to lose - of course things are very fluid atm so that might change but my gut feeling is that despite everything the Democrats still aren't mainstream enough to topple him.  Time will tell...

The mere fact that Americans use 'liberal' and 'left' synonymously suggests they haven't got a ducking clue what 'left' actually means.

[MuespachRam]

17 hours ago, BriggRam said:

George Floyds murderers were coppers  long before Trump became president, and things like this have been going on for decades if not centuries in America, how is that Trumps fault

You would actually defend him....?