Cocu in or out?

[Ramfan1958]

Listening to my PSV work friends it's OUT !!!

[Ramarena]

I'm on the in side at the present time the guy's had a ridiculously awkward start in terms of what's happened at the club pre-season, shocking summer transfer window, joiners arms, crippling injury list, etc. 

However I can see why some fans are not happy. He's clearly not found his favoured team from the group available, there's strange little decisions like putting Beilik on the bench at the weekend- either his fit to start or he's injured end of, or playing Whittaker who looks a decent prospect but isn't quite ready for the starting 11 yet. He also seems to lack a bit of bravery and persists with stuff that clearly isn't working for too long. 

Will he improve things will a transfer window, players returning from injury and Rooney being able to finally play? I really hope so, I think he's struggling a bit with adapting to this division and that's being compounded with everything else.

I don't think Mel will pull the trigger unless we're in grave relegation danger or the new investors get twitchy. Hopefully he can get a couple of players in January and make some steady progress and we stabilise in mid table and then he get's to sort the team out in the summer. 

[europia]

23 hours ago, Wolfie20 said:

Nothing to do with lack of effort - we're short of quality and the players are lacking in confidence. The confidence issue can be put down to a number of factors - too many changes to the match day starting eleven, injuries to key players and individual player errors amongst them.

No doubt someone will soon point to Lawrence with regard to lack of effort but his demeanour doesn't change irrespective of whether he's having a good game or not so I don't feel it's lack of application in his case.

Sorry, there are too many excuses. Nothing wrong with running your socks off, even if you're having a bad game. Many supporters would appreciate it. Just my opinion, but one that is shared, I feel. 

Regarding Lawrence, he really would benefit from a change of environment, but that would probably mean the club selling at a significant loss. The alternative.... we put up with a player not fulfilling his potential. One decent game in five just isn't acceptable. 

[Jram]

12 hours ago, NottsRam77 said:

And So it boils down to the individual 

Yeah I think so 

[Dethorn]

https://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/phillip-cocu/leistungsdatenDetail/trainer/6405/plus/0?saison_id=&verein_id=36&liga=&wettbewerb_id=&trainer_id=

 

Makes interesting reading - he really did not do very well at Fenerbache - hope he is not a one club person, As much as I am an 'In' we need to be wary that he might just have influence at PSV

 

Preferred formation on here looks like 4-2-3-1

but he did use 3-4-1-2 and even 4-4-2 in his later days at Fenerbache

However his 4-4-2 is listed as 4-4-2 double six ??

Anyone know what that means ??

[SuperDerbySuperRams]

Convinced that Cocu will come good, and I haven’t seen anything to suggest otherwise. He needs two transfer windows (he hardly had one in the summer). 

[SuperDerbySuperRams]

 

[Archied]

Can’t really understand the out voters , I have some nagging doubts at this point and the frustration that comes with the team not doing well which leads to a knee jerk sack the manager feeling but when I look at it logically I just can’t begin to make a fair assessment of cocu over this very short issue filled period , it’s just a guess based on next to nothing

[Day]

 

[Dimmu]

45 minutes ago, Dethorn said:

https://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/phillip-cocu/leistungsdatenDetail/trainer/6405/plus/0?saison_id=&verein_id=36&liga=&wettbewerb_id=&trainer_id=

 

Makes interesting reading - he really did not do very well at Fenerbache - hope he is not a one club person, As much as I am an 'In' we need to be wary that he might just have influence at PSV

 

Preferred formation on here looks like 4-2-3-1

but he did use 3-4-1-2 and even 4-4-2 in his later days at Fenerbache

However his 4-4-2 is listed as 4-4-2 double six ??

Anyone know what that means ??

4-4-2 with double six means that both CM's are defensive midfielders foremost. Maybe more familiar example would be Karankas' Boro few years ago when Clayton and Leadbitter played the double6. Tough to break down and damn boring to watch if the wingers and forwards aren't exceptional players.

Edit. Of course 4-4-2 with double 6 is not far from 4-2-3-1. If other strikers drops deeper, that's basically the same. As always, I wouldn't cling to numbers as most of them are too close to each other anyway. When the numbers matter, is when we have the rigid defensive shape or start attacks at the back and that's surprisingly rarely.

[Anon]

1 hour ago, Dethorn said:

https://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/phillip-cocu/leistungsdatenDetail/trainer/6405/plus/0?saison_id=&verein_id=36&liga=&wettbewerb_id=&trainer_id=

 

Makes interesting reading - he really did not do very well at Fenerbache - hope he is not a one club person, As much as I am an 'In' we need to be wary that he might just have influence at PSV

 

Preferred formation on here looks like 4-2-3-1

but he did use 3-4-1-2 and even 4-4-2 in his later days at Fenerbache

However his 4-4-2 is listed as 4-4-2 double six ??

Anyone know what that means ??

Apparently it's to do with playing two deep lying centre mids, the number 6 traditionally being worn by such a player in the good old days of 1-11 shirt numbers. Most references I can find regarding the double six refer to the 4-2-3-1, so I'm not sure how it's supposed to work in a 4-4-2. Maybe it means the 4-2-2-2 where the full backs essentially play as wingers and the deep lying mids sit in and cover?

[IanC]

I just despair. Maybe quoting Alex Ferguson and how long it took him to succeed at Man Utd is an extreme example,but the  "cocu out" people really should read the article at https://hbr.org/2013/10/fergusons-formula       .......about building a football club from the bottom up. You are looking at 4 years minimum. Sure the football isn't inspiring at the moment ,but there are so many contributory factors for this. I didn't hear any complaints when BillyD got us promoted with functional football built around a miserly defence - and look how that finished up. I have not been a season tkt holder since that season in the prem. I never booed or hurled abuse at the players though,and never have on the occasions i have watched them since.

Cocu is a winner,and i am convinced he will be a winner here - given the time - and with more home grown players in the side than we have ever had. To build from the bottom up,by simple definition means that the last to benefit will be the top level ie 1st team. Patience is required now more than ever. For injured players to get back,and for newly blooded players to gradually build up there minutes,confidence and experience,before they start to have an increasing influence on games.

[Tamworthram]

On 16/12/2019 at 20:06, Ramfan1958 said:

Listening to my PSV work friends it's OUT !!!

What are your PSV friends saying then?

[atherstoneram]

So,if we get rid of Cocu who do we bring in. MM's remit for any manager coming in this season was to bring Academy players through to the 1st team. The likes of Pardew, Hughton etc. prefer to buy players off the peg and very little time for bringing players through. We don't know how many applied for the managers job but then walked away when they saw Mels philosophy, at least Cocu has history of nurturing youth and fitted in well with what Mel wants. If we had a consistent 11 Cocu would have a couple of the academy players playing week in/week out in the starting 11 by now (or at least on the bench) but with injuries Cocu hasn't been able to play a consistent regular 11. I believe he has no other option to change tactics to suit the players he has available. Confidence is another issue, look at Waghorn, well known he suffers from confidence issues but the problem is the harder he (anybody) tries and fails the confidence goes down, i would imagine his confidence at the moment is rock bottom no matter how much the manager/coaches try to instil that confidence back in him

Whether people like it or not Keogh was a leader on the pitch and we are so sadly missing that, he wasn't afraid to bawl anyone out.

Alluding to Angierams post earlier i certainly think there are issues amongst the players regarding Keogh. I think Cocu will come good when he gets the chance to bring in players who he wants. When he was approached we had just been to Wembley, what incoming manager would not think we had a good squad but then it gets decimated, loan players leaving, , older experienced players moving on, injuries week after week, he certainly didn't inherit the team he would have seen playing at Wembley or on videos he had been watching. I don't think he is playing negative tactics, at the moment he is fire fighting

As  Angie said Lawrence will have more on his mind than football, massive payout from his insurance company to Keogh, not just for loss of  earnings for the rest of his contract but also future earnings as a coach/manager. There may be players , who lay the injury to Keogh on his shoulders, Cocu may be having to deal with squad issues such as that as well as on the pitch issues.

Give the man a chance for pities sake, the worst start at a club any manager could have.

[Sexydadbod]

We definitely need a director of football in place to ensure that the philosophy remains the same or at least similar to ensure that there isn’t upheaval whenever a manager leaves or is sacked. This would also be more cost effective in the long run because it would mean that managers would need less of a transiton(I hate this term), because the players would at least have a general idea and be familiar with what the style is and so the manager wouldn’t need to bring his own players in again to suit the philosophy.
 It’s been said many times on here but we need a definitive philosophy and just stick with it instead of all this chopping and changing of managers with different styles, from quick entertaining football, to Rowett’s hoof ball to clement and Cocu’s slow and pragmatic possession football. 

I personally want to see a variant of what Sheffield United play and what we played under McClaren , we had possession but it was quick and entertaining but also winning football. Cocu never has and never will be that man because that’s not his philosophy, he sees football in a different way.

[Coneheadjohn]

Stick with him,give him time and a change of luck.

What I don’t accept is that we have to reach rock bottom to start the rebuild and these insipid lack lustre halves of football are just part of that process.

I know everything’s gone against us but we should be showing more fight and spirit,there’s still some quality in that squad.

[RoyMac5]

3 minutes ago, Van Cone De Head said:

Stick with him,give him time and a change of luck.

You make your own luck...

[Tamworthram]

7 minutes ago, RoyMac5 said:

You make your own luck...

I've often thought that's an odd phrase. By definition, luck is something that happens which is beyond your control.

[Coneheadjohn]

9 minutes ago, RoyMac5 said:

You make your own luck...

To a certain extent but the injuries have gone against him.

Probably a bit naive as far as the GTA Allestree affair.

It’s the lack of drive and spirit that worries me,they shouldn’t be needing a rocket at half time to put the effort in.

Unless they’re doing exactly what they’ve been told and practiced all week...that would worry me.

[RoyMac5]

12 minutes ago, Van Cone De Head said:

It’s the lack of drive and spirit that worries me,they shouldn’t be needing a rocket at half time to put the effort in.

Unless they’re doing exactly what they’ve been told and practiced all week...that would worry me.

I think that's what some fans are also worried about. Maybe Rooney will be Cocu's lucky charm?