Cocu in or out?

[Rammy03]

6 hours ago, The Orange Pimpernel said:

Who exactly was good last season? 

Waghorn, Marriott, Malone, Bogle, Roos

Sure each of them had their good and bad moments but never were they all playing bad at one time. Now they are.

[dcfcfan1]

1. If we lose to wigan- relegation is a real possibility- make no bones about this

[BodminRam]

oh my god, listen to yourselves. Mr Cocu has inherited a team with last seasons best 3 players missing, that only just made the play offs . give the man a break. let us decide after jan when he has acquired a few and they have time to gel

[Steve How Hard?]

Things can change very quickly in football. Take Blackburn Rovers as an example. October saw them pick up 2pts and had their fan base calling for a change of manager. Their manager even came out and pretty much said he didn't need the hassle and could walk away quite easily. Fast forward 8 games and 6 wins later and they sit just 1pt outside the play offs and 3pts from 3rd place. Yes there is very little positives to find for ourselves at the moment but it just goes to show that a bit of patience can sometimes be rewarded with an upturn in fortunes. Will Cocu turn it around? I've absolutely no idea but at this present time a change of manager isn't the way to go for me despite how grim things currently look. 

[derbydaz22]

6 hours ago, Andicis said:

I don't. I never did. I do expect to see goals, and fight, and shoots of growth. I don't expect us to storm the league. I agree with plenty of things in your post, but I think you're being overly kind to a manager that seems out of his depth. Cocu is as much to blame for this as the players are. There are worse squads than ours in this league that are significantly more coherent than we are. 

That’s my biggest concern about Cocu at the moment the fact he’s not getting the best out of what we have available,he’s been dealt a difficult hand with the squad he has inherited and has been unlucky with injuries with our midfield 3 all out at the same time and Keogh is a massive loss.Even with everyone fit I thought we would struggle for goals this season as we were so reliant on Mount and Wilson last year but even with all these problems we should be doing better and belief me on the evidence of the last 3 games we are not to good to go down.

[Jayram]

8 hours ago, IslandExile said:

So, let's suppose there is a manager capable of getting this squad to "run through brick walls". They're still not going to be able to reach the playoffs. We only just managed that with the three loanees and fewer of our better players out injured.

So, really, such a short term solution would merely result in us finishing a few places further up the mid-table than now.

Whereas with Cocu, there is a longer term plan. Bring in academy players. Bring in investment so we can afford better quality players. He's not had the chance to do that yet.

If there is an appreciation that it is a long term plan, why are folks expecting instant success?

No one is expecting ‘instant success’ but watching football is an expensive business and Rams fans are entitled to something more than the utter dross that is currently being served up. I couldn’t really care less if we don’t trouble the top 6 this season but I do want to see some form of progression. Instead we get the same dull dour clueless tripe every single game week in week out. 
A good manager can get the best out of the players he has regardless of their ability. Cocu hasn’t got a clue how to manage or motivate players who are not up to the standard of those he has managed at the likes of PSV. And as we are not likely to see those sort of players in the Championship (or be able to afford them) it stands to reason we need to get someone in who can.

[Sith Happens]

6 hours ago, BodminRam said:

oh my god, listen to yourselves. Mr Cocu has inherited a team with last seasons best 3 players missing, that only just made the play offs . give the man a break. let us decide after jan when he has acquired a few and they have time to gel

Dont forget also last Johnson and Bryson who both played significant parts of our campaign, and who both would have improved yesterdays team.

Personally I hope he doesnt spend money for the sake of it in Jan. Rather see us improve if we can 'cheaply', get through this season and then use whatever budget he has in the summer.

Judge End Nov next year...if things still look poor then maybe its the time.

[AdamRam]

1 minute ago, Paul71 said:

Dont forget also last Johnson and Bryson who both played significant parts of our campaign, and who both would have improved yesterdays team.

Personally I hope he doesnt spend money for the sake of it in Jan. Rather see us improve if we can 'cheaply', get through this season and then use whatever budget he has in the summer.

Judge End Nov next year...if things still look poor then maybe its the time.

And Keogh, plus has an injury list that has Huddlestone, Shinnie and Clarke on the physio table.

[Sith Happens]

2 minutes ago, AdamRam said:

And Keogh, plus has an injury list that has Huddlestone, Shinnie and Clarke on the physio table.

Very true. You have just named four players who would probably have started yesterday.

 

[NottsRam77]

8 hours ago, IslandExile said:

I think the positives are around the noises that the academy staff are making about players seeing a route to the first team.

I think we're all agreed the current first team squad is poor BUT, on top of that, injuries have not been kind - especially to Bielik, Huddlestone, Shinnie and that's without mentioning the former captain.

There have been some positive displays, good football (Preston, Forest, West Brom, Boro) and fighting performances (Leeds, Birmingham). Nevertheless, I agree the majority of what's been served up has been poo.

I'm afraid I just don't think the current lot are capable of much more. (And remember, there were quite a few poo performances under Lampard).

I do think we need at least half a new team of higher quality players, so that will cost a lot and take 2-3 windows. So hopefully the investment won't fall foul of FFP.

But otherwise, how can anyone expect this squad with 4-8 (depending whether you include the injured) of the better players from last season perform better or finish higher than last season's squad?

It seems some people are wanting a short term solution with players running around more, maybe even clagging promotion then plummeting (Billy Davies anyone?) - rather than putting up with some pain while allowing time to build something bigger and better.

You make fair points and as Iv said before I’m trying to be as balanced as possible but my overwhelming feeling is that this is not a good fit 

I think it says it all that 2 of the 4 better performances that u quote we’re achieved when he went to 2 up top with Lawrence in the hole ......... only for him to dispand it after only two (as u rightly say better) performances 

the players were at his disposal to play the line up again but he chose to change it up yet again and go back to the lone isolated front man 

he’s been dealt a rough hand, very rough hand but I don’t think he’s covered himself in any glory at all quite honestly and we’re seeing performers of the team and more worrying individuals regressing at an alarming rate 

[Sith Happens]

Cocu joined on the 5th July.

Just dont see how that was enough time for him to look at the squad, assess, decide where he needed to improve, get the scouts out, get the players in he wanted.

I know lots of people hold him in high regard, and I enjoyed last season, but I am allowing myself to get more frustrated and annoyed with Frank for this. We lost 6 weeks or so from the play off final to when he finally moved on. 6 weeks in limbo, how can you scout for, or persuade players to join you when it was not clear who our manager would be. I know he was on holiday, but that holiday seemed to last a long time.

[RoyMac5]

8 hours ago, Topram said:

Managers come in and try all the players we’ve had players have so many chances here and fail 

Who? There's only Martin, Fozzie and Anya from the 'old days' isn't there?

[IlsonDerby]

9 hours ago, Justa said:

One think that’s crossed my mind...

People keep saying it’s the squads fault that we are so poor and seem to apportion no blame to Cocu.

So how different is our squad now to the squad that Gary Rowett had ?

Now I didn’t enjoy Rowetts football but I’m sure the squad wasn’t much better was it ?

 

A fit Keogh

Davies 2 years younger

Huddlestone fit for most of season

Vydra top goal scorer in the division

Johnson a good player

Lawrence was in much better form - obviously personal problems have decimated his form

 

Even in that aging squad we had far more quality than now

[GB SPORTS]

12 hours ago, RoyMac5 said:

So Wijnaldum (Prem player) was already there? Plus Depay?

Yes but they where both young 22 and 18 respectively Depay played 28 games prior to Cocu's first season so I would argue it was Cocu who nurtured in and brought him through to the first team. My reasoning that whist I am not enamoured with his start he needs to be given a chance to implement his ultimate philosophy.

[BondJovi]

To quote our favourite, the reality is, the team aren't currently good enough.

Our squad at the start of the season, once the transfer window closed was a midtable side and with everyone in form we could be pushing into the play offs.

Since then we have gone from a cb pairing of Keogh and Clarke (good pairing in this league) to Davies and Forsyth (bottom half at best). Losing Keogh completely changes the way we play, we have never had to play a run of games without him to see the difference he makes.

The performances aren't good enough currently. Anyone saying the players aren't playing for the manager, then scrap them, have some self pride and take responsibility for your own performance. 

Players to return to the squad from injury or join in January who would make a positive difference.

Huddlestone

Shinnie

Bielik(needs to stay fit)

Clarke

Bennett (won us a lot of points last season)

Rooney.

Marriott( needs to actually stay injury free for more than a month or so)

I can't comment on Rooney yet, but none of those above are close to being the best players in this division, yet they would transform this team.

The saddest part in all this is that I wouldn't really be bothered which of the players we sold in January. I have seen inept performances this season and last, with no super talent to bail them out it exposes a lot of issues.

Cocu must do better, despite what I think above he could get more out of what he currently has, but not much. He deserves a fair chance after having a rotten run of luck. I said a while a go this club has long been letting the players get away with crap and the managers taking all the fall. About time we looked at it the other way.

In a relegation battle? Nonsense. Maybe if we were stuck with the same 18 we picked yesterday for the rest of the season, but we won't be. Calm down.

[SSD]

I think we can all agree that this current squad is a complete disjointed mess. People who think we should be challenging for promotion are leaving in a dream world. Let’s face it, without 2 of England’s brightest prospects and one of Wales’ star men (not Lawrence) we’d have never made it to Wembley last season. Unless you build a side over time (Norwich, Southampton, Sheffield Utd, Bournemouth), the only way you’ll achieve promotion is having a huge transfer and wage budget or you’re lucky enough to have incredible loan players like us last season. We do not have any of these factors now. This is a random blend of players from different manager eras and a few kids from the academy. It will never improve with a change of management.

Cocu has been stitched up from day one. If I walked into a new job and had to contend with poor preparation, lack of discipline of my team and terrible recruitment, I’d have been looking at the mirror thinking what on earth have I signed up for. 

The guy has a big contract. Unless we seriously look like being relegated, why not give him the time and resource? It’s clear to me that he has no faith in the team because of all the changes and I don’t blame him. Not one bit. Let him build his own spine of a team. Not tinker with some absolute crap from years gone by.

[NottsRam77]

9 minutes ago, BondJovi said:

To quote our favourite, the reality is, the team aren't currently good enough.

Our squad at the start of the season, once the transfer window closed was a midtable side and with everyone in form we could be pushing into the play offs.

Since then we have gone from a cb pairing of Keogh and Clarke (good pairing in this league) to Davies and Forsyth (bottom half at best). Losing Keogh completely changes the way we play, we have never had to play a run of games without him to see the difference he makes.

The performances aren't good enough currently. Anyone saying the players aren't playing for the manager, then scrap them, have some self pride and take responsibility for your own performance. 

Players to return to the squad from injury or join in January who would make a positive difference.

Huddlestone

Shinnie

Bielik(needs to stay fit)

Clarke

Bennett (won us a lot of points last season)

Rooney.

Marriott( needs to actually stay injury free for more than a month or so)

I can't comment on Rooney yet, but none of those above are close to being the best players in this division, yet they would transform this team.

The saddest part in all this is that I wouldn't really be bothered which of the players we sold in January. I have seen inept performances this season and last, with no super talent to bail them out it exposes a lot of issues.

Cocu must do better, despite what I think above he could get more out of what he currently has, but not much. He deserves a fair chance after having a rotten run of luck. I said a while a go this club has long been letting the players get away with crap and the managers taking all the fall. About time we looked at it the other way.

In a relegation battle? Nonsense. Maybe if we were stuck with the same 18 we picked yesterday for the rest of the season, but we won't be. Calm down.

Not in a relegation battle ?

not yet we are but with 2 away games coming up we could be two points off the drop

we’re not in it yet but we’re teatering precariously from joining it 

Let’s hope he recruits better in January than he did in the summer as two of the 3 have contributed absolutely nothing 

and the one we paid money for, well for me the jury is still out on 

[Justa]

42 minutes ago, IlsonDerby said:

A fit Keogh

Davies 2 years younger

Huddlestone fit for most of season

Vydra top goal scorer in the division

Johnson a good player

Lawrence was in much better form - obviously personal problems have decimated his form

 

Even in that aging squad we had far more quality than now

Your probably right but Keogh and Huddlestone are divisive figures.

Most people were more than happy for Johnson to go he was very inconsistent.

Can’t argue about Vydra though..

[Justa]

I still can’t help but think that although this squad is poor they could/should be doing better than they are.

[Sith Happens]

Just now, Justa said:

Your probably right but Keogh and Huddlestone are divisive figures.

Most people were more than happy for Johnson to go he was very inconsistent.

Can’t argue about Vydra though..

Not sure 'most' people wanted Johnson to go. I know some did though, got the impression on here that most would have liked to see him stay, on the deal that suited Derby.

I would have liked him to stay personally.