AdamRam Posted October 16, 2017 Share Posted October 16, 2017 13 minutes ago, David said: And that's my point, it isn't like football, there is no man stood over the pitch controlling each player as is being suggested by yourself. Now I'm confused as that is exactly where I'am coming from, actual players moving around the pitch, moving the ball from A to B which they appeared to have great difficulty with. Options were there but the ball wasn't played accurately, that's how we kept giving Forest the ball back, as a result we found ourselves on the back foot. Every goal kick, throw in can reset the pitch but again, we failed to play an accurate pass and back we went on the defence. Players fault, 100%. Absolute minimal basics from a very young age, practiced against brick walls and greenhouse windows. Second half we improved when they took their Scottish miniature footballer off, we became more confident, more accurate with our balls. Do we credit Rowett for that, or the players for getting a grip? Maybe the occasion got to them, maybe the early goal surprised ourselves even though Rowett said the game plan was to put pressure on them from the start. Either way, those 11 men that cross the line need to start being accountable on the pitch, you can't blame everything on the manager.....even if you dislike him. This is not about disliking a Rowett, it’s about your point that he has no influence on a players success rate when passing the ball. Huddlestone is our best passer would you agree? Therefore would you not also agree that he has a better chance of finding a player is he has 2 or 3 options to pick from? Therefore the formation and tactics will have an influence of the players ability to pass a ball, add in if the manager would rather you played safe rather than taking a risk or playing the ball into the channels to turn the defenders then GR does have an impact. Does this mean that the players are blameless for some awful passing, no, however to think that the way the team is set up and the tactics employed doesn’t have an impact on a players passing options is for me not correct. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Curtains Posted October 16, 2017 Share Posted October 16, 2017 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Day Posted October 16, 2017 Share Posted October 16, 2017 3 minutes ago, sage said: I am going to take the plunge and almost agree with Curtains. @David your argument is over simplistic. Whilst players are responsible for a pass in isolation of other factors, a manager's decisions clearly have an impact on how successful at passing an individual or a team is. Leaving aside the emphasis placed on passing in training, you have to have someone to pass to. Therefore a manager's transfer selections, match day selections, formations and tactics have a massive impact on passing success. I heard Jordan Henderson's passing range for England described as sideways, backwards and Hollywood. It reminded me of Derby passing out from the back or midfield. Perhaps a lack of passing ability but certainly not helped by not having players available for progressive but realistic passes. Think you're agreeing with AdamRam to Curtains but football is simplistic and often over complicated. I'm breaking it down to the simple, absolute basics of moving the ball from A to B which we were failing at in the first half but improved with in the second. Same team, same formation, why was that? The B was still there to be passed to in the first half but we failed to get the ball there, I'm not saying we have several B options available but to say they wasn't there down to Rowett's tactics would be wrong. Of course the way the manager sets up the side can have an effect on the side, but are these players that s*** scared to move out of a 2 yard box to find space for a pass? What I will place 100% blame on Rowett for is the signing of Huddlestone, that's not a player which is s*** scared to move out of his designated area on a pitch as that's the type of player he is. I cannot wrap my head around the thinking of that one at all. That doesn't give an excuse for the other 10 players on the pitch. Once the full 90 minutes go up later on Rams Player I will grab screenshots of the sloppiness from yesterday. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phoenix Posted October 16, 2017 Share Posted October 16, 2017 Sat here in Dorset at the moment in Stygian gloom. Can someone put up yesterday's highlights to cheer me up? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Day Posted October 16, 2017 Share Posted October 16, 2017 5 minutes ago, AdamRam said: This is not about disliking a Rowett, it’s about your point that he has no influence on a players success rate when passing the ball. Huddlestone is our best passer would you agree? Therefore would you not also agree that he has a better chance of finding a player is he has 2 or 3 options to pick from? Therefore the formation and tactics will have an influence of the players ability to pass a ball, add in if the manager would rather you played safe rather than taking a risk or playing the ball into the channels to turn the defenders then GR does have an impact. Does this mean that the players are blameless for some awful passing, no, however to think that the way the team is set up and the tactics employed doesn’t have an impact on a players passing options is for me not correct. I think the part we are disagreeing on is what you saw yesterday is a player having zero players to move the ball to, where as I did and my complaint is that a straight pass from a to b was failing to get there, sloppiness, misplaced, inaccurate call it what you will. What I'm not saying is we had several players in plenty of space that the man on the ball wasn't seeing, we didn't, but we had a man to pass to, it's those passes which for whatever reason wasn't being made. Of course tactics can dictate possible outlets, team selections can place players on the pitch that have the pace, vision, ability to create those. Yesterday was not a tactical disaster by Rowett by any stretch of the imagination, it was general sloppiness that lost us possession on several occasions which made me glad I put the dog away before kick off. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Curtains Posted October 16, 2017 Share Posted October 16, 2017 6 minutes ago, Phoenix said: Sat here in Dorset at the moment in Stygian gloom. Can someone put up yesterday's highlights to cheer me up? Here you go mate Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phoenix Posted October 16, 2017 Share Posted October 16, 2017 26 minutes ago, curtains said: Here you go mate Thank you so much! From those clips, fine margins. Even the gloom's lifting a bit now. Just waiting for the gales. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sage Posted October 16, 2017 Share Posted October 16, 2017 18 minutes ago, David said: Think you're agreeing with AdamRam to Curtains but football is simplistic and often over complicated. I'm breaking it down to the simple, absolute basics of moving the ball from A to B which we were failing at in the first half but improved with in the second. Same team, same formation, why was that? The B was still there to be passed to in the first half but we failed to get the ball there, I'm not saying we have several B options available but to say they wasn't there down to Rowett's tactics would be wrong. Of course the way the manager sets up the side can have an effect on the side, but are these players that s*** scared to move out of a 2 yard box to find space for a pass? What I will place 100% blame on Rowett for is the signing of Huddlestone, that's not a player which is s*** scared to move out of his designated area on a pitch as that's the type of player he is. I cannot wrap my head around the thinking of that one at all. That doesn't give an excuse for the other 10 players on the pitch. Once the full 90 minutes go up later on Rams Player I will grab screenshots of the sloppiness from yesterday. Surely having a CM who doesn't move around the pitch will have an effect on our passing. We have 2. That is down to Rowett. What is also down to Rowett is not picking a CF who can hold the ball up and link up play. I think it is also over simplistic to think a game changes solely based on what we do. The game changed on 58 minutes when Forest took McKay and Dowell off for Clough and Ward and Forest tried chasing the game too much, losing control of midfield. Our control really got amplified by the introduction of Thorne and Martin. . You have to look at whether losing possession is down to a poorly executed pass, the lack of available teammates in good positions or the pressing of a more mobile side. As an aside, our possession in the 1st half was 45% and 41% in the second. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Day Posted October 16, 2017 Share Posted October 16, 2017 23 minutes ago, sage said: Surely having a CM who doesn't move around the pitch will have an effect on our passing. We have 2. That is down to Rowett. What is also down to Rowett is not picking a CF who can hold the ball up and link up play. Way back when I got into this, my point was and I'll try to make it more clear as I'm obviously not making much sense so far and has kind of evolved. I'm not talking about situations where we had the ball and the player had no passable options, which there were occasions and I'll come to after. My main frustration was individual moments when there was a clear A to B moment that the ball was passed, the intended target was very clear but the ball failed to get there. Inaccuracy, sloppiness. Also the mind boggling moments such as Russell's cross field ball into the East Stand which is anyones guess as to what the intended target was. Mobile CM has nothing to do with this. Quote I think it is also over simplistic to think a game changes solely based on what we do. The game changed on 58 minutes when Forest took McKay and Dowell off for Clough and Ward and Forest tried chasing the game too much, losing control of midfield. Our control really got amplified by the introduction of Thorne and Martin. . You have to look at whether losing possession is down to a poorly executed pass, the lack of available teammates in good positions or the pressing of a more mobile side. As an aside, our possession in the 1st half was 45% and 41% in the second. Losing the ball happens, you will have it every game and yes part of that was the lack of an outlet in the first half as we sat deeper and deeper, but also the general sloppiness. It's clear Rowett isn't interested in meaningless possession in the middle of the park, but when we have the ball we were either sloppy (my main point) or static, slow to react. Sloppiness (again my main point, when an intended pass went astray) was my main gripe and defence of Rowett. Static, slow to react, I'm more inclined to place more blame on the players, but won't fully remove total blame from Rowett as our midfield options are lacking, his fault. I saw you mentioned it in the Ledley thread, we do need that more mobile midfielder, one that can move, collect the ball, drive forward 10 yards, push our forwards on and make an accurate pass. We don't have that, which is why we struggle to get ourselves going again when on the back foot. With this style of football, getting the ball quickly forward is how you win games. Not having that player, having a static Huddlestone is Rowett's fault, I don't see what he brings to the side in it's current state. Our attacking midfielders/forwards need to move further forward though, find the space to get the only thing we have out of Huddlestone the Hollywood pass. I can't see Rowett instructing the players to not move out, push forward when we have the ball as it goes against the nonsense of keep ball in midfield. We lose a ball from Huddlestone trying to pick out Lawrence 20 yards away running into space, no issues. We lose a ball making a 5 yard pass the dogs getting it. Will accept and open to being wrong on the second part, not the general sloppiness from an intended pass which went astray. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Curtains Posted October 16, 2017 Share Posted October 16, 2017 31 minutes ago, sage said: Surely having a CM who doesn't move around the pitch will have an effect on our passing. We have 2. That is down to Rowett. What is also down to Rowett is not picking a CF who can hold the ball up and link up play. I think it is also over simplistic to think a game changes solely based on what we do. The game changed on 58 minutes when Forest took McKay and Dowell off for Clough and Ward and Forest tried chasing the game too much, losing control of midfield. Our control really got amplified by the introduction of Thorne and Martin. . You have to look at whether losing possession is down to a poorly executed pass, the lack of available teammates in good positions or the pressing of a more mobile side. As an aside, our possession in the 1st half was 45% and 41% in the second. That’s a really good post. Its all about options and outlets. When CM is on his game he gives very good control of our forward play by simply holding the ball up and laying off to other team members who are supporting him I thought Forest took a lot of risks at times playing the ball out from the back and by Rowett using Nugent he was hoping that he could upset their rhythm by closing them down. Derbys options from the back are more limited without Martin but Vydra and Nugent give a more pace wise outlet. Forest passed the ball at times better than Derby but didn’t achieve that much because Derby kept their shape. Misplaced passes happen but outlets are needed ie give and go. Gary Rowett knows he’s not their yet he knows we can improve and if George gets fully fit and Martin is persevered with which I hope Gary wants then all is going to be well in the end. I would hate Martin to leave this Football club after battling to get him back from Fulham. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TuffLuff Posted October 16, 2017 Share Posted October 16, 2017 Just a few quick notes from yesterday now the celebrations have settled. -Davies defensive positioning is top draw, in fact the whole back fours is. It’s not something you overly notice but Davies more often than not is in the right place at the right time. - Wisdom coasted through that game like a seasoned pro. Still think he might end up being the signing of the summer, also you can tell Wisdom brings that extra bit of confidence out of Keogh as they trust each other. -Ledley looks good. Maaaaaybe a little one footed on his left but has the ability to work with it. -Not going to rag too much on Vydra, he scored and set up a goal and you can’t ask much more, but I’m still worried about his overall play. Too many times he left Huddlestone and Ledley exposed to those deep runs from their midfield. He’s in an important position there and he leaves Huddlestone and Ledley to cover a hell of a lot of ground for two players. On another day he wouldn’t have got away with it. To put it one way, we looked a better ‘unit’ with Thorne there, which increases my thought that it’s a role for a midfielder than a striker. Rowett doesn’t agree though, but surely it takes some doing to score and get an assist and not get motm? Maybe it’s a debate for another day but think it’s worth bringing up. -People get on Huddlestone’s case with being slow but I will question how many times there’s a viable outlet for him to pass forward. Too many times in the 1st half the attackers either don’t move to find space, are stood behind their defenders or asking for the impossible pass. Especially first half we all seemed bunches up in the debate if the park and it made for a tight game with lots of mistakes. It took the calm influence of Thorne to become an outlet and push the play out wide - Nugents ‘jack the lad’ attitude is perfect for a game like yesterday’s. Edit: Probably best to also say it was a great result yesterday and I’m not trying to take away from that. Two bits of quality won the game and I’m not really looking to criticise, just wanted to add a few points. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anag Ram Posted October 16, 2017 Share Posted October 16, 2017 I don't mind short passes if they cause opponents to run around but when two players exchange passes without moving or committing opponents or looking for alternatives it seems utterly pointless and is indicative of a lack of confidence and ambition. At least this didn't lead to chances. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
B4ev6is Posted October 16, 2017 Share Posted October 16, 2017 When derby had the ball in space in first half for me they needed play one and two pass and move in which makes it harder for oppsition players to close us down. But when thorn came on he was higher up the pitch creating chances but when chris martin came he held the ball bringing others into play but here food for throught is chris martin turning into a midfield player now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Inverurie Ram Posted October 16, 2017 Share Posted October 16, 2017 55 minutes ago, curtains said: That’s a really good post. Its all about options and outlets. When CM is on his game he gives very good control of our forward play by simply holding the ball up and laying off to other team members who are supporting him I thought Forest took a lot of risks at times playing the ball out from the back and by Rowett using Nugent he was hoping that he could upset their rhythm by closing them down. Derbys options from the back are more limited without Martin but Vydra and Nugent give a more pace wise outlet. Forest passed the ball at times better than Derby but didn’t achieve that much because Derby kept their shape. Misplaced passes happen but outlets are needed ie give and go. Gary Rowett knows he’s not their yet he knows we can improve and if George gets fully fit and Martin is persevered with which I hope Gary wants then all is going to be well in the end. I would hate Martin to leave this Football club after battling to get him back from Fulham. Outlets, control, shape, options and I would add stability, experience and difficult to breakdown in Carson, Davis and Huddlestone that will help us climb the table and be a team more likely to stay up there when required. The way Derby closed out the game was a very good sign, let's hope it's one sign of many more to come as we improve as the season and club develop. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Animal is a Ram Posted October 16, 2017 Share Posted October 16, 2017 https://www.theguardian.com/football/football-league-blog/2017/oct/16/derby-county-nottingham-forest-david-nugent Think this article sums the game up quite well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ninos Posted October 16, 2017 Share Posted October 16, 2017 8 hours ago, RamNut said: Over reaction. forest came close on numerous occasions - just couldn't quite finish hit the post, mckay's one on one, cummings scoop over the bar, carson tip over, murphy near miss, another shot just wide of the post. we sit deep and hold our shape - deliberately not running around - but in the end the clean sheet owes much to a bit of good fortune and some good saves from carson. Nah. Ambitious was right. It's not an overreaction. What about our crossbar hit and their goalies great save? Our total dominance In the last 30 mins? Forest were useless and all you need to do is read their forum or listen to any forest fans assessments. They were left bereft of any fight. At this rate if we played that team 10 teams we'd beat them 10 times. Inept and with basically no gameplan. Plus how would they stop Vydra? All I agree with is that we weren't that good with the ball until the later part of the match. Rowett himself noted it. Next time we'd be better and Forest would be the exact same. And since Wales aren't playing two games in the week preceding our match, Lawrence won't be as leggy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alph Posted October 16, 2017 Share Posted October 16, 2017 17 hours ago, AdamRam said: Well you said everything else apart from two things was pure greed, except it wasn’t, he made over 20 odd passes, did you miss them? He also had 5 shots of which 2 were on target, took several good corners and mostly looked a threat on the ball....as I said maybe worth watching it again ? It's not the number of passes. It's the timing. He passes when he's hit a dead end rather than when the timing suits the receiver. I remember a shot blocked that he should have probably done better with. And the free kick. I can't recall the others but I can't remember any being much to shout about. The "threat on the ball" and "looks dangerous" comments are the ones I take issue with. 5 years ago Russell used to run the ball out of play and straight into trouble to the sound of applause. Now when he does the exact same thing it's to the sound of boos. It took that long for many too see that he does more looking dangerous than actually being a danger. That's why I don't think Lawrence "looks dangerous". I know 9/10 that he will get directed inside, into trouble and then release the ball in a last ditch attempt to keep possession rather than a conscious decision. His set pieces and crossing are decent. His defending isn't. When it comes to travelling with the ball and releasing it at a time which benefits the team I think Russell is a better player. I think he's had a better season so far. I don't think it's fair he gets a hard time when he's doing more defensive work and driving forward from deeper than Lawrence. I mean the performances at 3 away games from Russell were way above anything any winger has produced since Ince left. And again on Sunday he was the better player. I don't understand how Lawrence "looks dangerous" and Russell is getting grief Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ram59 Posted October 16, 2017 Share Posted October 16, 2017 45 minutes ago, TuffLuff said: Just a few quick notes from yesterday now the celebrations have settled. -Davies defensive positioning is top draw, in fact the whole back fours is. It’s not something you overly notice but Davies more often than not is in the right place at the right time. - Wisdom coasted through that game like a seasoned pro. Still think he might end up being the signing of the summer, also you can tell Wisdom brings that extra bit of confidence out of Keogh as they trust each other. -Ledley looks good. Maaaaaybe a little one footed on his left but has the ability to work with it. -Not going to rag too much on Vydra, he scored and set up a goal and you can’t ask much more, but I’m still worried about his overall play. Too many times he left Huddlestone and Ledley exposed to those deep runs from their midfield. He’s in an important position there and he leaves Huddlestone and Ledley to cover a hell of a lot of ground for two players. On another day he wouldn’t have got away with it. To put it one way, we looked a better ‘unit’ with Thorne there, which increases my thought that it’s a role for a midfielder than a striker. Rowett doesn’t agree though, but surely it takes some doing to score and get an assist and not get motm? Maybe it’s a debate for another day but think it’s worth bringing up. -People get on Huddlestone’s case with being slow but I will question how many times there’s a viable outlet for him to pass forward. Too many times in the 1st half the attackers either don’t move to find space, are stood behind their defenders or asking for the impossible pass. Especially first half we all seemed bunches up in the debate if the park and it made for a tight game with lots of mistakes. It took the calm influence of Thorne to become an outlet and push the play out wide - Nugents ‘jack the lad’ attitude is perfect for a game like yesterday’s. Edit: Probably best to also say it was a great result yesterday and I’m not trying to take away from that. Two bits of quality won the game and I’m not really looking to criticise, just wanted to add a few points. I'm sorry, but I don't get this love in with Wisdom. He lacks pace for a full back and by his own admission, hates going forward. Also, that chance for Mckay was down to him trying to play the offside trap, disastrously. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Van der MoodHoover Posted October 16, 2017 Share Posted October 16, 2017 1 hour ago, Phoenix said: Thank you so much! From those clips, fine margins. Even the gloom's lifting a bit now. Just waiting for the gales. The glooms reached Hampshire. Can hardly see owt! Very bizarre dark browny orange light. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve How Hard? Posted October 16, 2017 Share Posted October 16, 2017 49 minutes ago, B4ev6is said: when chris martin came he held the ball bringing others into play but here food for throught is chris martin turning into a midfield player now. For me he's just doing what he always has done and doing it well in his last two cameo roles.. Coming short and cleverly linking play. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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