Post office scandal

[Bob The Badger]

I thought I'd start a new thread as it was starting to get discussed in the watchable telly thread.

I haven't watched the ITV drama yet but I will.

I was aware of the story, but not especially as it happened when we were living in the US and I had no clue it ran into hundreds of people with each one being told nobody else had other issues.

This is looking like the biggest scandal/cover-up of our time with a lot of people complicit. I hope the duckers who ok'ed this at the highest level get sent down.

 

[Grumpy Git]

I've known about this scandal for a few years and really can't understand why its taken a TV drama to get the government to really do something right for a change, (oh, hang-on)...................

HM government are still using Fujitsu for NEW government IT/support services too! Make your own mind up.

Edited January 8 by Grumpy Git

[Tamworthram]

1 hour ago, Grumpy Git said:

I've known about this scandal for a few years and really can't understand why its taken a TV drama to get the government to really do something right for a change, (oh, hang-on)...................

HM government are still using Fujitsu for NEW government IT/support services too! Make your own mind up.

I first came across the story listening to a BBC podcast about it (back in 2020 or something). A truly shocking story (even allowing for elements added to the TV series for dramatic effect. 
 

Apparently, nearly a million people have signed a petition for Vennells to be stripped of her CBE. The petition can be signed at: you.38degrees.org.uk/ petitions/strip-paula- vennells-of-her-cbe

[BucksRam]

1 hour ago, Bob The Badger said:

I thought I'd start a new thread as it was starting to get discussed in the watchable telly thread.

I haven't watched the ITV drama yet but I will.

I was aware of the story, but not especially as it happened when we were living in the US and I had no clue it ran into hundreds of people with each one being told nobody else had other issues.

This is looking like the biggest scandal/cover-up of our time with a lot of people complicit. I hope the duckers who ok'ed this at the highest level get sent down.

 

Couldn't agree more.  People's lives have been destroyed off the back of this. Lost their job, house, family, friends. Some sadly have even gone to their graves being incorrectly labelled as a criminal. Someone really needs to be held to account.  Incompetence and cover up on a massive scale.  What's even more sad, despite some convictions being quashed, it's taken ITV making this drama for further action to be taken, including even more people coming forward as victims.  I do wonder how many more were affected above the 100s we're already aware of.  Shameful. 

[Grumpy Git]

Also bear in mind that the phantom 'losses' which were repaid by some of those accused went in the Post Office's profit figures!

[BaaLocks]

Stripping someone of their CBE isn't going to pay the bills of those who have suffered for years with nobody willing to even listen, let alone do anything.

Potentially this becomes a really strong test case of 'society' against 'the people' and events such as Windrush, Grenfell, Hillsborough, Met Police, Shrewsbury Hospital maternity, PPE, Jimmy Saville, families of serial killers (e.g. Yorkshire Ripper where it is now commonly accepted that he could have been apprehended quicker had policing been more focused) and then even families of individuals such as Steven Lawrence, Sarah Everard.

We have a fork in the road here, either we use this as the wake up call to challenge those in power and to make them accountable for their actions. What I fear will happen is Vennells will lose her CBE, some big number will be quoted (which, when divided by those affected means each person gets a few thousand) and we will go back to our normal lives, when we didn't have two weeks on the sofa to stop and understand just how these bar stewards turn us over time and time again for no other reason than because they can.

Edited January 8 by BaaLocks

[Ram-Alf]

There are 2 entities here the Post Office and Royal Mail, RM is in private hands and the PO is Government run, So there should be no surprise in how the PO has got to this point now is there.

Vennells was put in charge of the PO by the Government, Vennells was given a CBE by the Government, Vennells is taking the flack and rightly so for the Government.

But lets not kid ourselves here successive Governments have their grubby paw prints well imbedded in this, Ed Davey was Postal Affairs Minister when the Lib Dems were in power with the Tories, He's now blaming post office managers of misleading him over this debacle...someone will be hung out to dry and made a scapegoat...but no one in Government or were in Government will be held accountable.

[Ram-Alf]

Did he have his fingers crossed when giving this interview 🙄

https://news.sky.com/video/the-post-office-was-lying-on-industrial-scale-to-me-and-other-ministers-says-sir-ed-davey-13044288

[ram59]

It's disgraceful that these problems were evident over 20 years ago and nobody at the PO or government at the time either noticed and/or was prepared to act upon it. 

What can't be defended is the lack of action since the problems have come to light in the appeal courts. The people responsible for this have put  these sub postmasters through hell and will end up costing us taxpayers hundreds of millions of pounds, custodial sentences and loss of pensions should be the least of their punishments.

Whilst, I applaud the ITV for bringing this injustice to the fore, I feel that questions must be asked of them, regarding the exclusion of the head of the post office, prior to Paula Fennells. He was Adam Crozier and when he left his post at the post office, he went to become the head of ......................................................ITV.

[Comrade 86]

Paula Vennells needs prison time. I'm not sure what the stripping of her CBE achieves, even though I agree it should happen. Sub-postmasters were sent to jail and it should now be her turn. This was a conspiracy and all involved in the cover-up need custodial sentences. That said, I doubt any of the major players will ever see the inside of a courtroom, let alone prison, indeed on stepping down from her role as head of the PO, she was rewarded  for her services with a £400,000.00 golden handshake. If that does not absolutely scream contempt, I don't know what does but the one hand washes the other, I'm afraid. Our government, justice system and public services are overrun with corruption and greed and it's high time heads rolled.

[uttoxram75]

Private Eye have hammered this disgusting behaviour from the beginning. All politicians have known about this for 20 years, Labour, Tory, Lib Dem, yet its been allowed to happen to protect a corporation and the people who awarded that corporation the contract.

Journalists of all our major news outlets have also known about it but decided not to report it or weren't allowed to.

[Ram-Alf]

Round 1 👍

https://news.sky.com/story/former-post-office-boss-paula-vennells-to-hand-back-her-cbe-13044576

[Shipley Ram]

This seems to be criminal conduct from the prosecutors

 

[Stive Pesley]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-67921298

"Calls grow for Fujitsu to pay for Post Office injustice"

This doesn't sit right with me - and I feel weird sticking up for Fujitsu

I do not and have never worked for them, but I have worked on large IT projects for government departments whilst at other large IT Service Providers

If this was allowed to go live with these massive errors and bugs in it, then that's not Fujitsu's fault. Did Fujitsu do the user acceptance testing? Of course not - the clue is in the word "user". The Post Office would have been responsible for user testing and the sign-off to live

The failure here is simply - "IT Outsourcing" - it doesn't work because the power dynamics are all skewed on both sides. The Post Office project managers responsible for delivering the system are being measured against and rewarded for delivering the system on time. As are Fujitsu. No one has any incentive to say "this doesn't work - we need to delay by 6 months". That way lies severe bollockings, reputational damage, missed bonuses etc etc

This happens ALL the time, on pretty much every project I've ever worked on. Just that this time there were real and severe consequences on people's lives 

 

[Ram-Alf]

1 hour ago, Stive Pesley said:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-67921298

"Calls grow for Fujitsu to pay for Post Office injustice"

This doesn't sit right with me - and I feel weird sticking up for Fujitsu

I do not and have never worked for them, but I have worked on large IT projects for government departments whilst at other large IT Service Providers

If this was allowed to go live with these massive errors and bugs in it, then that's not Fujitsu's fault. Did Fujitsu do the user acceptance testing? Of course not - the clue is in the word "user". The Post Office would have been responsible for user testing and the sign-off to live

The failure here is simply - "IT Outsourcing" - it doesn't work because the power dynamics are all skewed on both sides. The Post Office project managers responsible for delivering the system are being measured against and rewarded for delivering the system on time. As are Fujitsu. No one has any incentive to say "this doesn't work - we need to delay by 6 months". That way lies severe bollockings, reputational damage, missed bonuses etc etc

This happens ALL the time, on pretty much every project I've ever worked on. Just that this time there were real and severe consequences on people's lives 

 

In the TV programme didn't the whistle blower say in court that Fujitsu were able to change the figures on the system...as witnessed by a union official, Then they said he wasn't there so couldn't have seen what was in the room that didn't exist.

Or was this just for viewer content 🤷‍♂️ 

[Tamworthram]

56 minutes ago, Ram-Alf said:

In the TV programme didn't the whistle blower say in court that Fujitsu were able to change the figures on the system...as witnessed by a union official, Then they said he wasn't there so couldn't have seen what was in the room that didn't exist.

Or was this just for viewer content 🤷‍♂️ 

In the TV series I seem to recall he said they had a whole team in the basement at Fujitsu changing figures pretty much 24/7. Maybe that was for dramatic effect (seems too massive an allegation to be made up) or maybe the whistle blower got it wrong. Both scenario seems unlikely to me.

If it happened then, even if it was sanctioned by the Post Office, it strikes me that Fujitsu were complicit and contributed towards the scandal.

[Stive Pesley]

1 hour ago, Tamworthram said:

In the TV series I seem to recall he said they had a whole team in the basement at Fujitsu changing figures pretty much 24/7. Maybe that was for dramatic effect (seems too massive an allegation to be made up) or maybe the whistle blower got it wrong. Both scenario seems unlikely to me.

If it happened then, even if it was sanctioned by the Post Office, it strikes me that Fujitsu were complicit and contributed towards the scandal.

I've not seen it, but I don't have to suspend my disbelief to imagine that could have happened, but it would be almost unthinkable to believe an IT supplier would be changing financial data in a customer's system without being pressured to do so by the customer, or that the customer would be oblivious. 

I suppose my point was that demonising fujitsu as the "bad guys" seems to be the latest angle being pushed but I'd be willing to bet that the Post Office management were equally if not more to blame 

[uttoxram75]

Individuals need to be prosecuted. Forget fining the Corporation, that's the easy way out. Prosecute the persons responsible for making the decisions. 

The Post Office senior management and the Fujitsu guys involved at the time. Go to the very top and hammer these greedy, horrible b******* who happily ruined peoples lives for profit.

Until these utter cretins get huge fines and serious jail time there is no incentive to do the right thing.

[Grumpy Git]

15 minutes ago, uttoxram75 said:

Individuals need to be prosecuted. Forget fining the Corporation, that's the easy way out. Prosecute the persons responsible for making the decisions. 

The Post Office senior management and the Fujitsu guys involved at the time. Go to the very top and hammer these greedy, horrible b******* who happily ruined peoples lives for profit.

Until these utter cretins get huge fines and serious jail time there is no incentive to do the right thing.

I'll eat Paul Warne's bobble hat if anyonevat the top goes to jail.

These leeches spend their waking hours covering their arses. They also have special 'phones, on which  WhatsApp messages mysteriously disappear.

[uttoxram75]

Just now, Grumpy Git said:

I'll eat Paul Warne's bobble hat if anyonevat the top goes to jail.

These leeches spend their waking hours covering their arses. They also have special 'phones, on which  WhatsApp messages mysteriously disappear.

Too true Grumpy. I know how senior management work and only individual prosecution would correct their behaviour. Corporate fines are budgeted for, send the b******* to jail so they've got something interesting to talk about at their Board meetings.