Post office scandal

[Grumpy Git]

Ian Hislop cut-off on ITV's Peston just now whilst tearing Jake Berry a new one. 👊🏻

I wonder where former PO & ITV executve Adam Crozier is hiding currenly?

[MaltRam]

Vennells needs banging up. No ifs, no buts...she was in it up to her neck. Not the only one either.

For once, I think the establishment might give up one of their own and she might actually see the inside of a cell.

It's a popular cause now; there's votes in seeing her get what's coming. 1 chance in 5 she does bird? 

[richinspain]

Can someone please give me a brief summary of the case? The only things I know I have picked up on here.

[Tamworthram]

9 hours ago, Stive Pesley said:

I've not seen it, but I don't have to suspend my disbelief to imagine that could have happened, but it would be almost unthinkable to believe an IT supplier would be changing financial data in a customer's system without being pressured to do so by the customer, or that the customer would be oblivious. 

I suppose my point was that demonising fujitsu as the "bad guys" seems to be the latest angle being pushed but I'd be willing to bet that the Post Office management were equally if not more to blame 

I don’t think anyone is suggesting that the Post Office management shouldn’t take the overwhelming (by some considerable margin) share of the blame. Just that Fujitsu “may” have been complicit. If Fujitsu are guilty in any way then I would say it almost (but not quite) fades into insignificance compared to the PO’s role. Whatever Fujitsu we’re doing, I’m confident in my mind that it was at least with the blessing of the PO.

[Alph]

1 hour ago, richinspain said:

Can someone please give me a brief summary of the case? The only things I know I have picked up on here.

Money went missing due to a "faulty system" provided by Fujitsu. 

700 people took the fall for it. There was suicide, convictions of fraud, false accounting etc. 

Couple of decades later it turns out the system was the problem. The money just vanished. As money does

[Stive Pesley]

1 hour ago, Tamworthram said:

I don’t think anyone is suggesting that the Post Office management shouldn’t take the overwhelming (by some considerable margin) share of the blame. Just that Fujitsu “may” have been complicit. If Fujitsu are guilty in any way then I would say it almost (but not quite) fades into insignificance compared to the PO’s role. Whatever Fujitsu we’re doing, I’m confident in my mind that it was at least with the blessing of the PO.

Again - with my experiences of large IT outsourcing firms contracting to provide IT solutions to customers, I can pretty much guarantee that the individuals in Fujitsu who will/may have been complicit will be long gone from Fujitsu. Managers in these places tend to last 2 years max before they merrily jog on to a new employer with a large pay rise, so demonising Fujitsu as an entity is somewhat pointless. Find those people, wherever they are now and have them explain themselves, and who ordered them to do what they did. Eventually the buck with stop with an insanely well paid "director" who didn't care at the time, just wanted his bonus. Get that guy in prison

[Grumpy Git]

23 minutes ago, Alph said:

Money went missing due to a "faulty system" provided by Fujitsu. 

700 people took the fall for it. There was suicide, convictions of fraud, false accounting etc. 

Couple of decades later it turns out the system was the problem. The money just vanished. As money does

The money didn't 'vanish', there was no fraud. The flawed Fujitsu Horizon accounts software created fake deficits. The Post Office then chased the subpostmasters for this 'money', even though no money had been stolen. And the poor buggers remortgaged their homes to pay back money they'd never taken in the first place.

When subpostmasters complained, the Post Office said they were the ONLY ones who had got any problems with the Horizon system, which was obviously a lie.

In its initial roll-out, the Horizon system meant that the Post Office went from prosecuting approx. 5 people per year for fraud to approx. 60 per year. But still no one thought it might have an odd bug or three...........

But be honest, who's surprised? The country's run on a diet of greed and blaming the 'small' people. Everyone knows I can't get a dental appointment because of the bloke who just landed on a Kent beach, obvious innit.

Edited January 11 by Grumpy Git

[Alph]

7 minutes ago, Grumpy Git said:

The money didn't 'vanish', there was no fraud. The flawed Fujitsu Horizon accounts software created fake deficits. The Post Office then chased the subpostmasters for this 'money', even though no money had been stolen. And the poor buggers remortgaged their homes to pay back money they'd never taken in the first place.

My cynical tone didn't come across? 

[Tamworthram]

9 minutes ago, Stive Pesley said:

Again - with my experiences of large IT outsourcing firms contracting to provide IT solutions to customers, I can pretty much guarantee that the individuals in Fujitsu who will/may have been complicit will be long gone from Fujitsu. Managers in these places tend to last 2 years max before they merrily jog on to a new employer with a large pay rise, so demonising Fujitsu as an entity is somewhat pointless. Find those people, wherever they are now and have them explain themselves, and who ordered them to do what they did. Eventually the buck with stop with an insanely well paid "director" who didn't care at the time, just wanted his bonus. Get that guy in prison

I agree the individuals concerned will no doubt have moved on long again but, if they were employees of Fujitsu (and IF Fujitsu were found to be complicit) wouldn’t the company have to be responsible for the actions of its employees 🤷🏻

Demonising might be too strong a word as I agree (and have said) the PO must shoulder the overwhelming guilt but maybe Fujitsu do have some responsibility. None of us really know what happened.

[Grumpy Git]

15 minutes ago, Tamworthram said:

None of us really know what happened.

I think we can all agree there was (and still remains) an absolutely MONUMENTAL cover-up.

Also note that during this time, Fujitsu successfully sued the government for £700,000,000, because they cancelled another IT contract. Yet still to this day they are getting new business from HMG.

Edited January 11 by Grumpy Git

[Tamworthram]

31 minutes ago, Grumpy Git said:

I think we can all agree there was (and still remains) an absolutely MONUMENTAL cover-up.

Also note that during this time, Fujitsu successfully sued the government for £700,000,000, because they cancelled another IT contract. Yet still to this day they are getting new business from HMG.

Without knowing all the details it's difficult to form an opinion. I agree with @Stive Pesley that Fujitsu probably shouldn't be completely demonised because of this horrible scandal but, if they are culpable in any way then a contribution should be sought. Regarding the £700m case, as you say they won their day in court so I'm not sure you can blame them for seeking compensation. If you cancel a contract for someone to complete a piece of work then, unless you can wriggle out on a technicality or the contract allows a cancellation, surely you should expect to have to pay up.

Regarding future work, I'd like to think the government's procurement process is robust enough to ensure contracts are awarded to the right people but, sadly, my confidence in their right and proper persons process is no better than it is for the EFL. This would be a fault on behalf of the government not Fujitsu. You can't blame them for bidding for work.

[GB SPORTS]

10 hours ago, Grumpy Git said:

Ian Hislop cut-off on ITV's Peston just now whilst tearing Jake Berry a new one. 👊🏻

I wonder where former PO & ITV executve Adam Crozier is hiding currenly?

Just to be pedantic (i do intensely dislike the man as well) Adam Crozier was CEO of Royal Mail not the Post Office they are different legal personalities.

At present he is the chairman of Whitbread and BT. 😢

[Wolfie]

For anyone (including me) who isn't sure of the backstory of this, theres a really good summary in the first half of this week's The Rest Is Politics podcast (episode 208).

Fantastic podcast generally as well.

@richinspain

[Wolfie]

Basically, Fujitsu were the cheapest bidder for the PO contract to develop the IT system. They then realised that it was a far bigger job than they thought, and tried to adapt a previous system they'd got - which was originally used for something else. The new bits of programming (technical term) didn't match precisely with the older bits and numbers went missing because there was nowhere for them to go.

And then the PO lies began........

[therealhantsram]

21 minutes ago, Tamworthram said:

Regarding future work, I'd like to think the government's procurement process is robust enough to ensure contracts are awarded to the right people but, sadly, my confidence in their right and proper persons process is no better than it is for the EFL. This would be a fault on behalf of the government not Fujitsu. You can't blame them for bidding for work.

Having worked on both sides of the fence I can tell you that all the rules and checks and balances in government procurement that are meant to safeguard taxpayer spending are actually part of the problem. The focus on fixed price lowest bidder procurement makes planning and purchasing anything so horrendously slow, complex and expensive that projects become ever bigger and all sorts of other small unrelated work often get tacked on to the proposal just so they can try and get some efficiency in the purchasing process.

The result is that there are usually very few bidders (only a handful of companies can deliver this size of project), there's very little innovation (they all try to rehash existing old tech to keep bidding cost down),  whatever is delivered is a horrible mish mash of old systems, and there are so many assumptions and unknowns baked into the government requirements that projects can't possibly be delivered at quoted price anyway. 

The quoted prices are all complete fantasy and everyone involved knows it.

In my view all parties are equally complicit in this mess, but of course the government won't be looking to change the way it works (unless they choose make purchasing even more complex) because why would they when they have a handy scapegoat?

[Grumpy Git]

One of the problems is sales 'engineers'* not having a f****** clue as to the technical challenges of a given project, only to ensure his employer gets the gig.

It's 100% the reason why I set-up my own business. I got fed-up of going to jobs tooled-up with a donkey when I needed a thoroughbred.

*In my experience, the vast majority of sales 'engineers' are no more than over-promoted used-car dealers.

Edited January 11 by Grumpy Git

[ariotofmyown]

3 hours ago, Wolfie said:

For anyone (including me) who isn't sure of the backstory of this, theres a really good summary in the first half of this week's The Rest Is Politics podcast (episode 208).

Fantastic podcast generally as well.

@richinspain

Also @Tamworthram, the Question Time Rest is Politics from this week contains some pretty damning points on how Government procurenment still happens today.

[Wolfie]

3 minutes ago, ariotofmyown said:

Also @Tamworthram, the Question Time Rest is Politics from this week contains some pretty damning points on how Government procurenment still happens today.

Indeed it does, having just listened to it this lunchtime.

[TimRam]

19 hours ago, Stive Pesley said:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-67921298

"Calls grow for Fujitsu to pay for Post Office injustice"

This doesn't sit right with me - and I feel weird sticking up for Fujitsu

I do not and have never worked for them, but I have worked on large IT projects for government departments whilst at other large IT Service Providers

If this was allowed to go live with these massive errors and bugs in it, then that's not Fujitsu's fault. Did Fujitsu do the user acceptance testing? Of course not - the clue is in the word "user". The Post Office would have been responsible for user testing and the sign-off to live

The failure here is simply - "IT Outsourcing" - it doesn't work because the power dynamics are all skewed on both sides. The Post Office project managers responsible for delivering the system are being measured against and rewarded for delivering the system on time. As are Fujitsu. No one has any incentive to say "this doesn't work - we need to delay by 6 months". That way lies severe bollockings, reputational damage, missed bonuses etc etc

This happens ALL the time, on pretty much every project I've ever worked on. Just that this time there were real and severe consequences on people's lives 

 

Agree with all this as I speak from experience. As long as the pms report to management that the project is on time then it will go live. Techies like me can shout all they like that it's not ready but the priority is always it goes in on time. Also a lot of the pms are not technical and it's a huge job to explain something without them glazing over. The problem can also be enhanced by a lot of the technical teams making descisions without considering the impact on others further along the project chain. So glad I am no longer in an office.

Edited January 11 by TimRam

[Comrade 86]

16 hours ago, MaltRam said:

Vennells needs banging up. No ifs, no buts...she was in it up to her neck. Not the only one either.

For once, I think the establishment might give up one of their own and she might actually see the inside of a cell.

It's a popular cause now; there's votes in seeing her get what's coming. 1 chance in 5 she does bird? 

Can't see it, sadly. Maybe a few weeks in a Cat D somewhere, but I can't even see it going to court, more's the pity. Hard to imagine Vennells in somewhere like Holloway anyway. She'd not last a day.

2 hours ago, Wolfie said:

Indeed it does, having just listened to it this lunchtime.

Used to try to raise this point on the old politics thread and then the first Covid one, ref PPE. Got shouted down most often. I have done any amount of work involving Government frameworks where procurement contracts are are put out to tender and I've seen elements of corruption on pretty much every single one. People would be outraged if they knew the true extent of it.