Hard work, instinct, intelligence?

[angieram]

A top flight footballer should probably have all three. Well, the greats certainly have, but there are many Premier League players who have made a career based on two.

We seem to be expecting the same of our players this season, but we're not going to get all three; or if we are we won't keep them for long! 

A good team probably needs a blend of footballing types. All hard work without instinct or intelligence won't get you very far.

Likewise, too many thinkers or flair players can be equally frustrating. 

So, how would you sum up the main attributes of any one of our current players? 

I'll start with Collins. He is Mr. Hard Worker personified. He has a bit of football intelligence with it, but his instinct to be in the right place or choose the right shot without thinking is lacking. 

Who would you pick out, and for what?

Please don't list the whole squad in one post, give somebody different a chance to contribute. 

[Premier ram]

Curtis Nelson, the instinct to be in the right place at the right time, intelligence to when to play the ball or clear his lines, I would say hard work as well but he looks like he cruises through games, a very impressive professional

[uttoxram75]

6 minutes ago, Premier ram said:

Curtis Nelson, the instinct to be in the right place at the right time, intelligence to when to play the ball or clear his lines, I would say hard work as well but he looks like he cruises through games, a very impressive professional

Perfect replacement for Curtis Davies.

[ilkleyram]

Louie Sibley. Always seems to me to work reasonably hard and got a good instinct for a shot or a pass but lacks a wider football intelligence that the likes of Will Hughes has, or IMO Max Bird has. There are times when he, for example, fouls someone or gets booked unnecessarily or gets caught out of position, when I think why on earth did you do that?  
I do wonder whether that’s why a number of different managers haven’t picked him regularly because on the face of it he’s got all the attributes to be a good player. Perhaps they don’t yet trust him enough.

[vonwright]

50 minutes ago, angieram said:

A top flight footballer should probably have all three. Well, the greats certainly have, but there are many Premier League players who have made a career based on two.

We seem to be expecting the same of our players this season, but we're not going to get all three; or if we are we won't keep them for long! 

A good team probably needs a blend of footballing types. All hard work without instinct or intelligence won't get you very far.

Likewise, too many thinkers or flair players can be equally frustrating. 

So, how would you sum up the main attributes of any one of our current players? 

I'll start with Collins. He is Mr. Hard Worker personified. He has a bit of football intelligence with it, but his instinct to be in the right place or choose the right shot without thinking is lacking. 

Who would you pick out, and for what?

Please don't list the whole squad in one post, give somebody different a chance to contribute. 

Think Max Bird has all three. He's maybe missing some other things that might keep him from reaching the top level: elite-level athleticism, perhaps (which might look like a lack of hard work, but really isn't). 

[RadioactiveWaste]

The hard work can be coached but the instinct and football brain can't (or can't as much) - but I think the thing with "hard work" is as much that it's the physical limits of an individual as it is how much they're trying at it.

I'd say Waghorn has one of the better balances of football brains, instinct and hard work in the current squad, but his age is diminishing the hard work aspect (he was a decently hard worker when he was here before I seem to remember).

Bird and Fornah are the other two who stand out on the inteligence side for me.

 

[Magicman]

If bird, smith and fornah could add 5 goals each per year they would be priceless. 

[Bris Vegas]

Tom Lawrence was the classic footballer who had talent but lacked a football brain. Seemed to regularly not know when or where to pass the ball.

Kamil Jozwiak actually had football intelligence in abundance. But he couldn’t kick the ball.

A hybrid of the two would be a PL footballer.

Of the current side, I’d say for pretty certain that Collins lacks a bit of footballing intelligence. The way he approaches some attempts his technique is all off while he always plays like he is a stray elbow away from a red card. There is aggressiveness and there is stupidity. 

[1of4]

Hourihane:- Hard working, in patches but not enough through out a match, so a no.

                     Instinct, no.

                     Intelligence, it'll be a yes just needs to use it more.

Which is why with only having one out of the three abilities. He's plying his trade with us and not with a championship club. Like some posters believe he was capable of doing, when extolling his signing as a great piece of business by the former manager.

Unfortunately he's not the only one considered as a great signing, at their time of signing. Who are not ripping up this division, like many thought they would.

Is this failure of the manager, I'm sure they'll be many on here eager to point in that direction. Or could it be that these players no longer have enough of the three attributes, the OP considers a good player needs.

[Archied]

Could easily list few already mentioned but I’m gonna go with bird simply because I’m seeing in my view the lad starting to grow towards a more complete player 

[BathRam72]

9 hours ago, Premier ram said:

Curtis Nelson, the instinct to be in the right place at the right time, intelligence to when to play the ball or clear his lines, I would say hard work as well but he looks like he cruises through games, a very impressive professional

I totally agree. But wouldn't you say he has the perfect blend. Intelligence to read the game coupled with instinct, probably built up through experience. This allows him to get the job done without expending lots of energy. Which is why he looks like he is cruising. That is why he has and probably will go on a lot longer than others around him at a decent level.

Defenders probably by the very nature of their role, don't necessarily need to run as much as midfield and the forwards, so why not conserve energy.. 

[kevinhectoring]

Tbh we’ve had plenty over the years whose main deficit has been lack of pace. Cashin is a good current example - he’d be at a PL club if he had Ashley Cole’s manoeuvrability   And for all that Warne tells us Sibley is one of his speed merchants, over 10 yards he moves like a Great Dane puppy through custard. Was so excited when Commons joined only to learn that describing him as sluggish was an insult to our slimy friends. (Nigel Clough was that rare example of a slowcoach who made up for it by speed of thought and Bergkampesque technique. Not many English internationals in that category…)

So you need athleticism in your list. I pray that Tommo has the strength to progress - he’s probably fast enough but does he have Knighty’s bite for that role? Want him to be Bremner

instinct and football intelligence seem one and the same - W Rooney’s football instincts completely eclipsed that he wasn’t top of the class. 
 

The right all round temperament is what’s needed. Barnes’ god-given football skills were squandered by (several things including) poor temperament. So ‘hard work’ seems too narrow - you need discipline, oh unless you’re in the Charlie George maverick class

Pondering what qualities make Fozzie the rock he is. Being an ‘honest professional’ …?
 

Different positions/ types of players call for different qualities. You also need a mix of these qualities in a team. 

[sage]

43 minutes ago, kevinhectoring said:

Tbh we’ve had plenty over the years whose main deficit has been lack of pace. Cashin is a good current example - he’d be at a PL club if he had Ashley Cole’s manoeuvrability   And for all that Warne tells us Sibley is one of his speed merchants, over 10 yards he moves like a Great Dane puppy through custard. Was so excited when Commons joined only to learn that describing him as sluggish was an insult to our slimy friends. (Nigel Clough was that rare example of a slowcoach who made up for it by speed of thought and Bergkampesque technique. Not many English internationals in that category…)

So you need athleticism in your list. I pray that Tommo has the strength to progress - he’s probably fast enough but does he have Knighty’s bite for that role? Want him to be Bremner

instinct and football intelligence seem one and the same - W Rooney’s football instincts completely eclipsed that he wasn’t top of the class. 
 

The right all round temperament is what’s needed. Barnes’ god-given football skills were squandered by (several things including) poor temperament. So ‘hard work’ seems too narrow - you need discipline, oh unless you’re in the Charlie George maverick class

Pondering what qualities make Fozzie the rock he is. Being an ‘honest professional’ …?
 

Different positions/ types of players call for different qualities. You also need a mix of these qualities in a team. 

Tommo is quick over the first 5-10 yards, but over 30 Bird, Fornah and Sibley are quicker 

[RoyMac5]

Bird has all three. We’re finally seeing proof that our ugly duckling is turning into a swan. I’ll be heartbroken if we lose him to a Championship club.

[trappatoni]

Not really buying into the typology that separates instinct and intelligence.   Does a defender read danger because of instinct or intelligence - perhaps one is innate and one the ability to learn but the end result is the same thing - ending up in the right place at the right time - position specific game understanding.   

 

I think Fozzy has maybe the best in this squad at that right now.   He's reached a point in his career where he just understands the game and is playing as well as he ever has. If you listen to Barkhuizen after Notts County also helping control the man ahead of him too.   

 

[ram59]

12 hours ago, RadioactiveWaste said:

 

Bird and Fornah are the other two who stand out on the inteligence side for me.

 

Fornah's intelligence also stands out for the wrong reasons for me, just think back over the last few games. Lucky not to get 2 yellow cards in a recent home game and had to be replaced at ht, followed by getting caught in a dangerous position which led to Cheltenham's only goal this season, followed by a rash tackle which gave Notts a lifeline in a lost cause. All so stupid and unnecessary, on each occasion I asked why?

We can't afford potential game changing mistakes like those in almost every game from one player, he has many attributes and hopefully will learn to make better decisions, but unfortunately intelligence is not taught and as we continue to see with the vastly more experienced Sibley, he still makes stupid challenges in ridiculous situations, such as late tackles on a defender by his own corner flag. It's so frustrating when you see players with so much talent, doing such stupid things.

[On the Ram Page]

13 hours ago, ilkleyram said:

Louie Sibley. Always seems to me to work reasonably hard and got a good instinct for a shot or a pass but lacks a wider football intelligence that the likes of Will Hughes has, or IMO Max Bird has. There are times when he, for example, fouls someone or gets booked unnecessarily or gets caught out of position, when I think why on earth did you do that?  
I do wonder whether that’s why a number of different managers haven’t picked him regularly because on the face of it he’s got all the attributes to be a good player. Perhaps they don’t yet trust him enough.

Not too sure about the hard work. He worked very hard on Tuesday night against Notts and when he comes on as a substitute puts a shift in because he wants to make the starting line-up. BUT once he makes the starting line-up something then goes missing. He doesn't appear to put himself about or work as hard in my opinion. Some will say he is played out of position - so what! - you still need to work hard and the only way you will get to play in your "proper" position is to make yourself indispensable. 

He did work hard when he had a run of games at wing back - but had no choice there and did a pretty good job. When I mean work hard I don't mean going around committing stupid fouls, getting yellow cards and in danger of getting sent off.

I think everyone wants him to do well and succeed but I have lost count of the number of times he has played his way into the side and then not delivered on any front. Everyone will say he should have a run of games but he has to earn that in my opinion. Here's hoping....

[RoyMac5]

28 minutes ago, On the Ram Page said:

Not too sure about the hard work. He worked very hard on Tuesday night against Notts and when he comes on as a substitute puts a shift in because he wants to make the starting line-up. BUT once he makes the starting line-up something then goes missing. He doesn't appear to put himself about or work as hard in my opinion. Some will say he is played out of position - so what! - you still need to work hard and the only way you will get to play in your "proper" position is to make yourself indispensable. 

He did work hard when he had a run of games at wing back - but had no choice there and did a pretty good job. When I mean work hard I don't mean going around committing stupid fouls, getting yellow cards and in danger of getting sent off.

I think everyone wants him to do well and succeed but I have lost count of the number of times he has played his way into the side and then not delivered on any front. Everyone will say he should have a run of games but he has to earn that in my opinion. Here's hoping....

What a total amount of unsubstantiated extrapolation.

He gets played all over the park, rarely  more than two games together, and you expect him to play as if experienced in the role!

He got a booking for a poor challenge and then what? Fornah has cost us two goals, and had bookings. Sibley has scored two goals in probably less game time. 

 

[Foreveram]

4 minutes ago, RoyMac5 said:

What a total amount of unsubstantiated extrapolation.

He gets played all over the park, rarely  more than two games together, and you expect him to play as if experienced in the role!

He got a booking for a poor challenge and then what? Fornah has cost us two goals, and had bookings. Sibley has scored two goals in probably less game time. 

 

Yeah but it was against a league two reserve side.😂

[Ghost of Clough]

2 minutes ago, Foreveram said:

Yeah but it was against a league two reserve side.😂

How many goals did our other first team players score against that L2 reserve side?