Wildsmith needs a talking to.

[Tamworthram]

1 hour ago, simmoram1995 said:

Man U 

Chelsea 

arsenal 

barcelona 

real 

psg 

all do or have done it. No one criticises them 

 

Some of us do.

[Tamworthram]

1 hour ago, ram59 said:

The trouble is, there is a fine line between success and failure in football. We failed last season because we didn't get promoted, we may have got promoted of we had got into the play offs, which we just missed out on. Looking back on last season, what was the net loss of points through penalties for players diving in the box?

Would you be complaining of we'd got promoted, because we matched other teams 'professionalism'? Unfortunately, professionalism or cheating happens throughout the game, whether it's faking injuries, wrestling at corners, standing in front of free kicks, niggling fouls to stop potential attacks early on, the list is endless. Every deliberate illegal act is cheating on the pitch, others are miss timed but not deliberate.

It would be lovely, to be in a position of vast superiority where we didn't need to resort to the dark arts, but I would suggest that no teams have never resorted to some kind of unsportsmanlike acts, to achieve what they have done.

I really don't subscribe to this myth that Derby players don't resort to the so called dark arts as much as players from other teams. I think we tend to conveniently turn a blind eye/give the players the benefit of the doubt when they're one of ours.

[Indy]

18 hours ago, davenportram said:

It’s not the going down injured that I dislike. It’s the going down holding his head that only can be to get a player sent off

Referee has to stop the game for a potential head injury. That is the aim - to stop momentum. It’s not ideal, but as others have said, we have got disadvantaged year in year out by opposition doing this to us and our refusal to do likewise has been naive and lost us vital games.
 

Even now, we mock on of our own great strikers of the last few years for going down easy - when he (apart from scoring) killed momentum, win free kicks, gave time for our team to get in position etc. 
 

As @carlsagan said, I’m bored of being plucky losers. 

[ram59]

8 minutes ago, Tamworthram said:

I really don't subscribe to this myth that Derby players don't resort to the so called dark arts as much as players from other teams. I think we tend to conveniently turn a blind eye/give the players the benefit of the doubt when they're one of ours.

How many penalties did we 'earn' last season and how many did the opposition 'earn' ?

Likewise how many tactical injury time outs did the opposition have last season, in comparison to ourselves?

Both are a stain on the modern game which I detest, but unless something is done about it, we have to go down that path also.

Personally, I play golf, snooker and walking football. I don't cheat, because to win by cheating is not winning at all. I couldn't enjoy a victory, knowing that I only won because I cheated.

 

But, football is a big business and do you think that there is one villa fan out there that wishes that villa hadn't smashed FFP to pieces when they beat us in the play off final and they'd rather have gone through what we have done in the last couple of years?

[Tamworthram]

35 minutes ago, ram59 said:

How many penalties did we 'earn' last season and how many did the opposition 'earn' ?

Likewise how many tactical injury time outs did the opposition have last season, in comparison to ourselves?

Both are a stain on the modern game which I detest, but unless something is done about it, we have to go down that path also. 

Personally, I play golf, snooker and walking football. I don't cheat, because to win by cheating is not winning at all. I couldn't enjoy a victory, knowing that I only won because I cheated.

 

But, football is a big business and do you think that there is one villa fan out there that wishes that villa hadn't smashed FFP to pieces when they beat us in the play off final and they'd rather have gone through what we have done in the last couple of years?

I don't know the answers to the questions in your first two paragraphs and I suspect neither do you. So, without analysing every game in full (not just the "highlights" or relying on what might be flawed memory) it's all a matter of opinion.

I agree that cheating is a stain on football. I'm just saying I don't think Derby players are quite as naive or such angels as some may think and we already do go down that path. I'd suggest any Derby fans that think we don't already resort to such tactics (possibly less than some teams but maybe more than others) are being a little naive themselves.

Of course I don't think any Villa fans would have preferred to swap positions with us. That's a ludicrous suggestion. But it still doesn't make it right.

Edited August 28, 2023 by Tamworthram

[Slaapwekkend P]

12 hours ago, Ramslad1992 said:

Personally I don’t like to see it but equally if everyone else does it (which they do) we would be at a disadvantage not to do it. If that was the difference between 3 points or 1 then well done Wildsmith! Whilst we can get away with it we should use every trick to try and get out of this league. 

 

2 hours ago, Mihangel said:

100%  - I don't want to be smugly enjoying our principled team, while sitting 16th in the table. Taking every advantage, pushing the boundaries of the law, it's all part of the game.

Apologies to the posters I've quoted, there were countless others I could have chosen.

Is it just me or does this kind of argument remind anyone else of the attitude to FFP that contributed to the club's current position?

Dark arts, professionalism, poohousery, call it what you want. At the end of the day it's cheating and embarrassing to see. Personally it's not what I want to be associated with and I'd rather the club played with integrity and sought to influence a change in the way it's dealt with.

[ram59]

1 hour ago, ramit said:

Yes, i would rather we lose than cheat, no matter how many others do it.  To me, winning by cheating is not winning at all.  Men's football is a mans game however, i see nothing wrong with being as physical a side as rules permit.  Not getting shouldered off a ball is a strength, a hard tackle can turn a game and so on.

Cast your mind back to the play off final against QPR, we had a great team and management set up that looked like it was going places, we were cheated by a team of expensive mercenaries which lost £76m in that season alone. They even resorted to professional fouls to stop us by any means possible and still needed lady luck on their side. Are you happy that we were the honest gallant losers  on that day or would you rather have accepted a cynical bit of play on our behalf, which would have won us the game and probably changed the recent history of our club?

I know which choice I would have made.

[G STAR RAM]

1 hour ago, IlsonDerby said:

I’m fairly sure but correct me If I’m wrong that had he given them the ball and let the game start right away and we conceded another straight from the restart you’d not be sat here saying ‘well at least we didn’t delay football being played’ 😂

Erm no, I'd be questioning why we couldn't see out 10 minutes of a match without conceding 3 goals

[Tamworthram]

20 minutes ago, ram59 said:

Cast your mind back to the play off final against QPR, we had a great team and management set up that looked like it was going places, we were cheated by a team of expensive mercenaries which lost £76m in that season alone. They even resorted to professional fouls to stop us by any means possible and still needed lady luck on their side. Are you happy that we were the honest gallant losers  on that day or would you rather have accepted a cynical bit of play on our behalf, which would have won us the game and probably changed the recent history of our club?

I know which choice I would have made.

Can you, hand on heart, categorically say that we didn’t commit any professional fouls during that game? Has a Derby player never committed a cynical foul to prevent a goal scoring opportunity in an important game or, if circumstance’s had been reversed, one of our players wouldn’t have done the same?

I hate cheating, professional/cynical fouls, taking one for the team (call it what you will) but also find it bizarre that some seem to think that as soon you pull on a Derby shirt you are immune from such behaviour.

 

Edited August 28, 2023 by Tamworthram

[ram59]

2 minutes ago, Tamworthram said:

Can you, hand on heart, categorically say that we didn’t commit any professional fouls during that game? Has a Derby player never committed a cynical foul to prevent a goal scoring opportunity in an important game?

We didn't need to, we dominated the game and over the season and the game, fully deserved to be promoted, but were cheated out of promotion. How I wish we could turn the clock back and win that game against that bunch of cheating bar tenders, even if it meant resorting to some dubious practices on the day. That 'honourable' defeat has cost us big time. If i'd known what was to follow, I'd have run on to the pitch and rugby tackled Zamora myself.

Who knows where that team plus some new signings could have gone, we could have been like Brighton.

[ramit]

9 hours ago, ram59 said:

Cast your mind back to the play off final against QPR, we had a great team and management set up that looked like it was going places, we were cheated by a team of expensive mercenaries which lost £76m in that season alone. They even resorted to professional fouls to stop us by any means possible and still needed lady luck on their side. Are you happy that we were the honest gallant losers  on that day or would you rather have accepted a cynical bit of play on our behalf, which would have won us the game and probably changed the recent history of our club?

I know which choice I would have made.

Give up, you won't make me say it 😁

[MadAmster]

21 hours ago, richgee1976 said:

I don't agree with what he did, but how many times have we had similair happen against us?

2 wrongs don't make a right. As that American chappie, Jackson, once said "If you wanna make the world a better place
Take a look at yourself and then make a change"...

If we want to stamp it out, it has to start somewhere. FA/EFL have made it clear that "simulation" will lead to a card. It has on a fair few occasions over the Leagues but not every one is caught by the refs. 

I'd love to see, and I know it won't happen, PW go public saying he'll fine and sub off any player who does it and his players have been instructed not to do it. He should also say that he would expect refs to card every player who does it, be it one of ours or one of the opposition.

It is, indeed "shithousery" and needs sorting.

Wildsmith went down in my estimation at the weekend.

[JuanFloEvraTheCocu'sNesta]

4 hours ago, AndyinLiverpool said:

Perhaps I should get my kids to cheat in exams because it will lead to success.

I accept that people don't have the same principles as me and I suppose Derby winning just doesn't mean enough to me for me to abandon my particular set of principles.

A bit of amateur dramatics to kill 30 seconds in a football match is hardly equivalent to cheating in exams.

Inferring that people who dont mind some of the dark arts in football are somehow fine with more significant and illegal forms of fraud and deception is massively unfair and likely offensive to a lot of people.

Edited August 28, 2023 by JuanFloEvraTheCocu'sNesta

[AndyinLiverpool]

5 minutes ago, JuanFloEvraTheCocu'sNesta said:

A bit of amateur dramatics to kill 30 seconds in a football match is hardly equivalent to cheating in exams.

Inferring that people who dont mind some of the dark arts in football are somehow fine with more significant and illegal forms of fraud and deception is massively unfair and likely offensive to a lot of people.

I am not responsible for what others find offensive. 

The level of 'significance' is neither here nor there. It's cheating.

The win at all costs mentality espoused by some on here stinks.

[Mihangel]

5 hours ago, Slaapwekkend P said:

 

Apologies to the posters I've quoted, there were countless others I could have chosen.

Is it just me or does this kind of argument remind anyone else of the attitude to FFP that contributed to the club's current position?

Dark arts, professionalism, poohousery, call it what you want. At the end of the day it's cheating and embarrassing to see. Personally it's not what I want to be associated with and I'd rather the club played with integrity and sought to influence a change in the way it's dealt with.

No need to apologise! The difference between this and the FFP shenanigans is that we were outliers, probably not the only ones doing it but we did it to an extreme. The problem with football is that it's an imperfect game, there are dozens of examples of 'cheating' every game that are just accepted as normal - Claiming for throw-ins/corners etc that players know are false, little off the ball shoves to gain a few yards (see JCH on Cashin leading to the first goal on Saturday), the chicanery that goes on for every single corner - It's all cheating so you either fix it at a macro level or spend years basking in the glory of integrity and honour and getting battered every week.

[JuanFloEvraTheCocu'sNesta]

1 hour ago, AndyinLiverpool said:

I am not responsible for what others find offensive. 

The level of 'significance' is neither here nor there. It's cheating.

The win at all costs mentality espoused by some on here stinks.

I think the pearl clutching espoused by some in here is overly dramatic. 

Equating a bit of boundary pushing on a football pitch to rank dishonesty is just overblowing it in my humble opinion.

[Tyler Durden]

Tomasz Cywka was pretty good at timewasting when protecting a one goal lead.

Just ask Nigel Clough.

[NottsRam77]

On 27/08/2023 at 16:01, davenportram said:

Not his shot stopping but his shithousery. 
 

After Peterbrough got their second one of their players took the ball off him and he went down holding his head. He was not touched on his head. He stayed down and got treatment for a fake injury.

 

I hate faking, but faking head contact is just trying to get a player sent off. Needs stamping out the game. 

Might need to ask whoever then to go do the rounds at every other football league club

its part of the game now sadly 

[Mucker1884]

6 hours ago, Slaapwekkend P said:

 

Apologies to the posters I've quoted, there were countless others I could have chosen.

Is it just me or does this kind of argument remind anyone else of the attitude to FFP that contributed to the club's current position?

Dark arts, professionalism, poohousery, call it what you want. At the end of the day it's cheating and embarrassing to see. Personally it's not what I want to be associated with and I'd rather the club played with integrity and sought to influence a change in the way it's dealt with.

I’m not certain we’re on the same topic here?  Did Mel and the gang go all out to deliberately and knowingly “cheat”?  Or was it a case of them thinking (mistakenly, as it turned out!) that they had found a way around the rules as they stood at that time?  A way to stretch the rules to the limit, without technically breaking them?  I’m not convinced that even Mel was dumb enough to think nobody would ever notice, and that he’d get away with a clear case if 100% cheating!

Any player however, pretending to be injured knows 100% and immediately that they are cheating, because they are lying. They are not injured… or at least, not as injured as they are making out. 
The problem being is that it is they, and they alone, that knows that they are lying/cheating, and is difficult for the ref… or anyone else… to prove it!  
They know they are cheating for sure… but are confident they stand a good chance of getting away with it. 
 

Two completely different scenarios, I’d say. 🤷‍♂️

[Ramslad1992]

13 hours ago, Slaapwekkend P said:

 

Apologies to the posters I've quoted, there were countless others I could have chosen.

Is it just me or does this kind of argument remind anyone else of the attitude to FFP that contributed to the club's current position?

Dark arts, professionalism, poohousery, call it what you want. At the end of the day it's cheating and embarrassing to see. Personally it's not what I want to be associated with and I'd rather the club played with integrity and sought to influence a change in the way it's dealt with.

No apology needed mate, it’s 100% different though, we apparently broke the rules regarding FFP and I don’t know enough to argue that we didn’t. What Wildsmith did was completely different imo, literally every team in the country will do the same. Passing it back to the keeper used to be a rule that teams exploited to the absolute max until they changed the rules and this is the same, it’s a case of if we don’t do it too we are at a disadvantage so we may as well join them imo. It’s up to then to change the rules to saw we can’t. Is it bad sportsmanship? 100% yes. Is it against the rules? Not yet I don’t think. It’s annoying I’ll admit but it could gain us around 10 points come the end of the season.