Knight Sibley Bird Bielik

[LeedsCityRam]

Bit saddened by the dismissal of Bird's impact on here...its clear some folk just don't realise what a good player he is. Like Will Hughes, he's a tempo player & controls the pace of the game but his defensive nous is also very good & clearly under-rated. No, he isn't particularly strong in the tackle but its 2023, not 1985...players are not rewarded for smashing into opponents these days but are rewarded for staying on their feet, tracking oppo midfield runs & intercepting dangerous passes/counter attacks. Max does all these very well & to the OP question, is the one player I absolutely would not want to leave.

As a contrasting midfielder, I could live with Jason Knight going especially as he's coming up to end of his contract & has international ambitions to protect. To be blunt, I haven't been impressed with his output in midfield this year & don't believe he has the quality to play centrall midfield long term. I do think he would make a good right wing-back (his best football this year was right side) & suspect that's where he will be played by whoever buys him. An offer of 2m plus would be a must sell.

Bielik is unlikely to return also given his international ambitions & at a reputed 20k a week (1m plus a year), just needs a quick move away. 

Sibley is a difficult one. Like Knight, I wasnt that impressed with his output this season but feel there is a player in there given time. With a more incisive front line in 23/24, he could make hay playing off the main striker(s). Hence I would only sell for silly money.

Edited May 30, 2023 by LeedsCityRam

[RodleyRam]

40 minutes ago, Caerphilly Ram said:

Looks that way, he finished the season at rwb but is listed as rm on their stats. I know it’s not the most reliable resource but it helped highlight a point. He’s been used in a number of positions this season and in others by all of his managers, I think the circumstances leading to that are often missed by people. Hopefully Knight stays and we’ll have enough cover throughout the squad that he can be used consistently in his best position, or even if he goes I hope the club he joins is able to offer him that same consistency for the good of his career. 

What do you think is his best position? He's played yet another position fairly consistently for Ireland in a formation we don't really use.

[Caerphilly Ram]

1 minute ago, RodleyRam said:

What do you think is his best position? He's played yet another position fairly consistently for Ireland in a formation we don't really use.

I think he’s a box to box midfielder, bringing energy and industry to the midfield, getting up and down the pitch and ideally arriving late into the box to score the odd goal here and there. 
Ideally I’d play him in a midfield 3 with Bird and a more robust sitting midfielder. Bird to control the tempo and keep us moving forward with passing, Knight to drive us forward with running and pressing, and the sitting midfielder to protect the defence, break up play and recycle the ball. With our current squad it wouldn’t necessarily work as you’re leaving out Hourihane and Smith, with potentially no room for Sibley as a starting player, but then you could rotate those 3 with Bird, Knight and my mythical midfielder. 
That formation would probably also mean sacrificing McGoldrick in favour of a more mobile centre forward capable of playing the solo central striking role supported by two wider forwards. 
I’ve said it a few times, the romantic in me would love all the academy lads to stay and be incorporated somehow into a winning side. Realistically I think Knight will go, which is a shame, but he isn’t irreplaceable, none of them are. I do agree with @LeedsCityRam’s assessment of Max Bird and of the midfielders listed by the OP, Bird is the one I would want to keep above all the others. I think that’s just down to a favouritism of sorts as well as appreciating his unsung contribution to the side. 

[RodleyRam]

21 minutes ago, Caerphilly Ram said:

I think he’s a box to box midfielder, bringing energy and industry to the midfield, getting up and down the pitch and ideally arriving late into the box to score the odd goal here and there. 
Ideally I’d play him in a midfield 3 with Bird and a more robust sitting midfielder. Bird to control the tempo and keep us moving forward with passing, Knight to drive us forward with running and pressing, and the sitting midfielder to protect the defence, break up play and recycle the ball. With our current squad it wouldn’t necessarily work as you’re leaving out Hourihane and Smith, with potentially no room for Sibley as a starting player, but then you could rotate those 3 with Bird, Knight and my mythical midfielder. 
That formation would probably also mean sacrificing McGoldrick in favour of a more mobile centre forward capable of playing the solo central striking role supported by two wider forwards. 
I’ve said it a few times, the romantic in me would love all the academy lads to stay and be incorporated somehow into a winning side. Realistically I think Knight will go, which is a shame, but he isn’t irreplaceable, none of them are. I do agree with @LeedsCityRam’s assessment of Max Bird and of the midfielders listed by the OP, Bird is the one I would want to keep above all the others. I think that’s just down to a favouritism of sorts as well as appreciating his unsung contribution to the side. 

Interesting, I think you or @Kokosnusssaid it earlier in the thread that he could be Bryson-esque. I think I'd agree with that, I don't see him as a wide player or a 10 but I'd definitely like to see him capitalising in the box. I feel like he had quite a few chances last season and don't think the goal return is what it ought to be. As you say though, he chopped and changed positions, it has to have a bearing on that.

Bird I like a lot and agree with the comments that he's a tempo player. I don't think the captaincy helped him in truth and I would like to see him influencing the game further up the pitch. The thing Will Hughes used to do incredibly well was seeing the game a few passes ahead, the amount of times he made the pass before the assist was impressive and the stats will never bear out how important he was to that Mac1 team. I'd like to see Bird that way too but I think we have asked him to play too deep in the absence of a genuine defensive mid.

Bielik, Bird and Knight would be a tasty combination in this league but I doubt it will ever happen and expect both Knight and Bielik to move on.

I think PW will try to play with two 10s this season, so those traditional conversations we have about the midfield 3 will be sidelined anyway!

[Raich Carter]

Look, I want Bird, Sibs and Knighty to be great / good Championship players but they're not (yet, at least).

In other threads, there is talk of how Lampard did a terrible job considering he had Tomori, Mount and Wilson now obviously we're not saying that Bird, Sibs and Knight are at their level but relatively speaking, if they're as good as some talk them up to be, they should be tearing up League One and they really, really haven't.

In a season where we have a 20+ goal striker, a very solid keeper and at least one good CB (Cashin - our best young player IMO), if these 3 were as good as everyone makes out then we should have finished much higher up the table. 

I think we're all remembering their promise as they started so young, wanting home-grown to do well, etc but taking hope/emotion out of it and based on last season, I don't see it. These players have all played 100+ games and now in their early 20's. If they were the hot shots some make them out to be, they'd have been bought during the fire sales we had during Administration. 

I don't want to be negative - just saying that I think we need to calm down a bit and be a bit more realistic. I want them to be as good as some make them out to be - they just ain't at the minute. Next season is huge for them - I sincerely hope that they really kick on and deliver on their early promise but this talk about £x millions is crazy. Last season we were a slightly above average League One team as illustrated by our finishing position - let's not get carried away thinking anything different. 

Oh, and with Bielik - an expensive legacy of the past. He'll go on a free/nominal fee. Good to see him playing so many games and he's back in the Poland squad (all great for him and us) but with one year left on his contract and massive wages, I'm sure the club will take anything and be delighted to have him off the wage bill.

Edited May 31, 2023 by Raich Carter

[jimtastic56]

11 hours ago, LeedsCityRam said:

Bit saddened by the dismissal of Bird's impact on here...its clear some folk just don't realise what a good player he is. Like Will Hughes, he's a tempo player & controls the pace of the game but his defensive nous is also very good & clearly under-rated. No, he isn't particularly strong in the tackle but its 2023, not 1985...players are not rewarded for smashing into opponents these days but are rewarded for staying on their feet, tracking oppo midfield runs & intercepting dangerous passes/counter attacks. Max does all these very well & to the OP question, is the one player I absolutely would not want to leave.

As a contrasting midfielder, I could live with Jason Knight going especially as he's coming up to end of his contract & has international ambitions to protect. To be blunt, I haven't been impressed with his output in midfield this year & don't believe he has the quality to play centrall midfield long term. I do think he would make a good right wing-back (his best football this year was right side) & suspect that's where he will be played by whoever buys him. An offer of 2m plus would be a must sell.

Bielik is unlikely to return also given his international ambitions & at a reputed 20k a week (1m plus a year), just needs a quick move away. 

Sibley is a difficult one. Like Knight, I wasnt that impressed with his output this season but feel there is a player in there given time. With a more incisive front line in 23/24, he could make hay playing off the main striker(s). Hence I would only sell for silly money.

The only way you can compare Bird to Hughes is in the lack of goals. Other than that Hughes could run a game from start to finish in a top 3 Championship team. Hughes could play killer balls in the box and get a team up the field. Bird has just had a poor season in Tier 3. I think his days are numbered with Warne .

[Caerphilly Ram]

17 minutes ago, jimtastic56 said:

The only way you can compare Bird to Hughes is in the lack of goals. Other than that Hughes could run a game from start to finish in a top 3 Championship team. Hughes could play killer balls in the box and get a team up the field. Bird has just had a poor season in Tier 3. I think his days are numbered with Warne .

What about Bird’s performances qualify your statement that he’s had a poor season? 

[jimtastic56]

3 hours ago, Caerphilly Ram said:

What about Bird’s performances qualify your statement that he’s had a poor season? 

Dropping down to Tier 3 , I would have expected him to have better numbers for goals and assists . As an away member I was suprised that when we played out from the back under Rosenior , away games in particular, he was not willing to move and take the ball in tight areas. Under Warne his tackling has been poor. He has never been able to take dead-balls , this should have changed by now. At Tier 3 he is ok but cannot be compared to Will Hughes - an established Prem player.

[Caerphilly Ram]

5 minutes ago, jimtastic56 said:

Dropping down to Tier 3 , I would have expected him to have better numbers for goals and assists . As an away member I was suprised that when we played out from the back under Rosenior , away games in particular, he was not willing to move and take the ball in tight areas. Under Warne his tackling has been poor. He has never been able to take dead-balls , this should have changed by now. At Tier 3 he is ok but cannot be compared to Will Hughes - an established Prem player.

Fair enough. I’m not keen on comparing Bird to Hughes, not every player has to fit the same mould as others. I rate Bird and think he does the work that enables others to go and play, I agree he needs to add a few more goals and assists to his game but wouldn’t say he’d had a poor season in my own view. Poor return for goals and assists yes, but played his part in a push for the play offs after massive uncertainty last summer. 
I’d really like a midfielder to join this summer to do the dirty work and free Bird (Skynnard fans in?) to play a bit further forward, also someone else to captain the side, let him focus on his game. 

[Ghost of Clough]

I believe we have a 100% win record in games where Bird, Knight and Sibley have started at DM/CM/AM together.

[FKANorwichExile]

For me, Bird needs to be played with a defensive minded player alongside him. The fabled "double pivot" that all the amateur tacticians rave about. It enables him to receive the ball deep, pick a pass and move forward into the space he's created whilst the workhorse stays back and gives him a bit more cover. He didn't have a great season because Hourihane is the opposite of that sort of player and wants to be on the edge of the opposition box. Add that to a team with 0 pace effectively doubling the area he needed to cover and you have a recipe for disaster.

The problem with that is that Warne likes the back 3, and that doesn't leave room for the double pivot unless you're Pep and have Rodri and Stones available. I simply don't believe we'll see the best from him unless we go back to the 4-2-3-1 and add a holding player alongside him. The majority of his best performances have been with Bielik or pre-covid Rooney, and both offered the ability to cover when he stepped forward or vice-versa.

[GeneralRam]

Wouldn’t lose sleep if any of them go. Bielik has the most quality but high salary and injury prone.

Sibley has been most disappointing for me though, just seems clueless on that pitch. Knight and Bird I’d have expected to be considered up there with the best in this league but haven’t.

[Rich3478]

9 hours ago, jimtastic56 said:

The only way you can compare Bird to Hughes is in the lack of goals. Other than that Hughes could run a game from start to finish in a top 3 Championship team. Hughes could play killer balls in the box and get a team up the field. Bird has just had a poor season in Tier 3. I think his days are numbered with Warne .

I’m with you on this, Hughes was light years ahead of bird.

[Rich3478]

41 minutes ago, NorwichExile said:

For me, Bird needs to be played with a defensive minded player alongside him. The fabled "double pivot" that all the amateur tacticians rave about. It enables him to receive the ball deep, pick a pass and move forward into the space he's created whilst the workhorse stays back and gives him a bit more cover. He didn't have a great season because Hourihane is the opposite of that sort of player and wants to be on the edge of the opposition box. Add that to a team with 0 pace effectively doubling the area he needed to cover and you have a recipe for disaster.

The problem with that is that Warne likes the back 3, and that doesn't leave room for the double pivot unless you're Pep and have Rodri and Stones available. I simply don't believe we'll see the best from him unless we go back to the 4-2-3-1 and add a holding player alongside him. The majority of his best performances have been with Bielik or pre-covid Rooney, and both offered the ability to cover when he stepped forward or vice-versa.

Think bird often has the option to be more positive in his play and drive the team forward but invariably he seems to go sideways and take the safe option.

agree he was definitely at his best with pre covid Rooney though. Looked an excellent player for that few months.

[Andicis]

22 hours ago, LeedsCityRam said:

Bit saddened by the dismissal of Bird's impact on here...its clear some folk just don't realise what a good player he is. Like Will Hughes, he's a tempo player & controls the pace of the game but his defensive nous is also very good & clearly under-rated.

Except he is nowhere close to the level of Hughes. Even Hughes his first full season of breaking into the team was better than Bird, and I don't dislike Bird but it's not a great comparison. Hughes in his first season was better than Bird at everything he does a couple of years into his Derby career. 

[LeedsCityRam]

11 minutes ago, Andicis said:

Except he is nowhere close to the level of Hughes. Even Hughes his first full season of breaking into the team was better than Bird, and I don't dislike Bird but it's not a great comparison. Hughes in his first season was better than Bird at everything he does a couple of years into his Derby career. 

Where did I say Bird was at the level of Hughes? I don't think anyone could credibly argue that. I was clearly comparing the type of player, that was the point being made.

11 hours ago, jimtastic56 said:

The only way you can compare Bird to Hughes is in the lack of goals. Other than that Hughes could run a game from start to finish in a top 3 Championship team. Hughes could play killer balls in the box and get a team up the field. Bird has just had a poor season in Tier 3. I think his days are numbered with Warne .

You do realise Will Hughes also had relatively few assists whilst playing for Derby? The killer balls you refer to were less of a feature of his game than the way he threaded play together.

I also can not agree Bird has had a poor season. The team struggled as soon as he got injured in Jan, which should speak volumes for his contribution. 

[SSD]

How I'd sell Bielik at this point

[On the Ram Page]

I too like Bird but do not see him as the man playing in front of the back 3/4. He may read the game ok but his lack of tackling power and heading ability does not provide the cover needed. Beilik would be perfect but will be gone. Bird was most effective last year when he was given time on the ball and he made at times some great passes during our unbeaten run. 
 

I then think some teams saw him as the man that made us tick and started to man mark him, which he didn’t seem capable of overcoming. Not comparing him to Glenn Hoddle, but both were/are at their best with time and space on the ball. Need to see what he can do when we get a proper DMF, before we make judgement on his impact.

what disappointed me most was that during the time he was out injured he said he learnt a great deal just watching from above and how the team could improve. But when he returned he played just the same way and was mainly ineffective.

Get the impression Warne likes him so will want to keep him if possible. Big season for him next year.

 

[Premier ram]

i would build my team around Max Bird , very under rated , missed when injured , hes the one id keep out of that group

[Ambitious]

I don't think anyone is dismissive of Bird - if he's here next season then he will be a huge part of our team. He was a player Rooney tipped to play for England, though, so my disappointment is of how good he is of a player and how sometimes he is overly passive. It seems like there is a little Ravel Morrison in him that everyone who watches him train raves about his ability, but it doesn't always translate into games. 

I expect him to look like Thorne 13/14 at this level and have that impact on a game. I would say it's similar to Knight, who was a decent player for us last season but both will have been disappointed not to have been able to have more of an impact.