How have our expectations now changed?

[plymouthram]

3 hours ago, Jourdan said:

I would expect us to be comfortably in the play-offs with a late push for the automatic promotion places if we can regroup quickly and build momentum.

Previously with Rosenior, it felt like we would be top half with an outside chance of the play offs purely due to his inexperience.

I don’t think promotion is guaranteed, but this move has definitely strengthened our case.

Do we have the right players to adapt with Paul Warne style of football. With him bringing in his coaching staff in, I would assume they will be playing the same style that Rotherham have been playing for the last 6 seasons. Which if this happens we might have the wrong players that Liam recruited. And if we do get promoted this season, would we drop straight back down the next season?

[Jourdan]

13 minutes ago, plymouthram said:

Do we have the right players to adapt with Paul Warne style of football. With him bringing in his coaching staff in, I would assume they will be playing the same style that Rotherham have been playing for the last 6 seasons. Which if this happens we might have the wrong players that Liam recruited. And if we do get promoted this season, would we drop straight back down the next season?

Time will tell.

[plymouthram]

3 hours ago, Tyler Durden said:

Clowes has obviously had enough time now to make his own assessment of the managerial situation which is 7th is ok but nowhere near where he considers we should be.

Think it's also a safe bet that the small matter of our abysmal away record has been a factor in his assessment.

Which is why Rosenoir has been relieved of his duties.

The clubs statement today said as much without using weasel words - the plan was always to review the club's situation after a short period - this was shared with fans from the outset - which Clowes has stuck by - so still find it hard to comprehend why some folks are still struggling to accept the rationale behind yesterday's announcement.

Can't get my head around what depths a manager has to plumb to make it justified to remove them in their eyes - in this case Rosenoirs performance was meh - which was deemed to be just about adequate but nowhere near the performance levels Clowes expected. Which again is why he's been relieved of his duties. 

Was it Clowes own assessment or was it the boards, or even Stephen Pearce  who under Mel Morris must have known what was going on under his tenure. I hope to be proven wrong but I think this appointment will fail and within 2 years Warne and his coaching staff will be shown the door. We have compensation to pay to Rotherham and giving Warne a contract until the summer of 2026 will be costly if they do axe him. This all stinks of Stephen Pearce's doing, I hope David Clowes has deep pockets.

[Tyler Durden]

7 minutes ago, plymouthram said:

Was it Clowes own assessment or was it the boards, or even Stephen Pearce  who under Mel Morris must have known what was going on under his tenure. I hope to be proven wrong but I think this appointment will fail and within 2 years Warne and his coaching staff will be shown the door. We have compensation to pay to Rotherham and giving Warne a contract until the summer of 2026 will be costly if they do axe him. This all stinks of Stephen Pearce's doing, I hope David Clowes has deep pockets.

Not sure what you base your prediction on quite honestly to give you so much certainty that this is doomed for failure.

It's not like the guy hasn't got a proven track record of getting a team promoted out of this division or anything is it.

[plymouthram]

2 hours ago, ram59 said:

Although technically true, people quoting our position of just outside the play offs on goal difference, is a bit misleading. 

You could also say that we are closer to 16th place than 5th place points wise or closer to relegation than automatic promotion points wise. With 20 minutes to go on Saturday, we were in 16th place, so we are just off the top of an incredibly tight group of teams.

A lot of if's but's and maybe's. We, with a little luck could have won away at Fleetwood, Shrewsbury and Charlton. Iffy decisions on a penalty and 2 disallowed goals at Lincoln. Plymouth's 2nd goal a good yard offside. We could have been looking at 9 additional points on our current total. I wonder what Clowes and the board would have done in them circumstances.

[Carl Sagan]

12 hours ago, Hoppo said:

A couple of months ago everyone was just hoping that we would still exist the next morning. As the take over happened we were hoping with 5 players we could survive league 1. After a good rummage around we incredibly managed to recruit some quality experienced players and people were talking top half of the table would be a good finish and with a period of stabilisation and maybe push for promotion next season. Once we started to see the quality of the players, though not quite yet gelling together, more hope was put on a top six finish.

With the imminent appointment of a new manager should we now be expecting to win the Division? Top two finish? Play offs? What is a realistic expectation when Warne is in place?

I disagree somewhat with the opening premise. Very quickly after David Clowes bought us we did a lot of business. Before the start of the season @Davidran a poll about expectations (can't find it sorry) and almost everyone expected a top 6 finish, given the quality of the incoming players. I'd love to be reminded of the results, but I think at least 75% were thinking top 6, with roughly half of those thinking automatic promotion. Only a few of us (I was one) said outside the playoff places.

[Hoppo]

Fair enough, i might have over egged it on the league one survival, but there was a time when none of us knew if we’d still be in existence. Original poll is here. 

I went for play offs. I’d still be happy if we made the playoffs. Just with the appointment of Warne, makes me think the bar may have been raised a bit by the club, and there is now an expectation of finishing in the automatics.

[Crewton]

13 minutes ago, Carl Sagan said:

I disagree somewhat with the opening premise. Very quickly after David Clowes bought us we did a lot of business. Before the start of the season @Davidran a poll about expectations (can't find it sorry) and almost everyone expected a top 6 finish, given the quality of the incoming players. I'd love to be reminded of the results, but I think at least 75% were thinking top 6, with roughly half of those thinking automatic promotion. Only a few of us (I was one) said outside the playoff places.

Pretty much spot on - 30% said top 2, 46% said playoffs. 20% (including me) said 7-10th.

The rest were Forest fans. 

[Nuwtfly]

1 hour ago, Srg said:

My expectations haven’t changed. I’d also argue Clowes’ hasn’t either. If it was s*** or bust, the 4 year contract makes no sense at all. To me, he’s just made a decision on who he wants long term and for stability he’s made that choice now - rightly or wrongly. 

Apparently wanted Warne in the summer but, for whatever reason, couldn’t do the deal.

It now looks like he’s given Rosenior the job in the interim to a) show what he’s made of and b) wait for Warne to possibly be available. 

[plymouthram]

7 minutes ago, Tyler Durden said:

Not sure what you base your prediction on quite honestly to give you so much certainty that this is doomed for failure.

It's not like the guy hasn't got a proven track record of getting a team promoted out of this division or anything is it.

Yes he's got Rotherham promoted 3 times, also relegated with the same style of football (twice). Managers and coaches get wise to other coaches style of play and will know how to overcome it and beat them. Every one looks at the decisions of taking on certain coaches and have their opinions. I think this will fail with Paul Warne and his coaching staff, especially if he continues in the style he has done with Rotherham. I hope to be proven wrong, but if I ain't and it all goes wrong I won't be gloating and stating "I told you so". I will just be another Derby fan disappointed that we have wasted one, two or more years on not making any progress.

We have taken on a manager, who as only managed one team, his record is 293 matches 112 wins 65 draws and 116 defeats, thats a win ratio at 38.2%. Liam Rosenior, also only managed one team, his record 12 matches 7 wins 2 draws and 3 defeats, win ratio 58.33%.

[Reggie Greenwood]

35 minutes ago, plymouthram said:

Was it Clowes own assessment or was it the boards, or even Stephen Pearce  who under Mel Morris must have known what was going on under his tenure. I hope to be proven wrong but I think this appointment will fail and within 2 years Warne and his coaching staff will be shown the door. We have compensation to pay to Rotherham and giving Warne a contract until the summer of 2026 will be costly if they do axe him. This all stinks of Stephen Pearce's doing, I hope David Clowes has deep pockets.

People keep mentioning Pearce as the problem with LR going. The guy is an accountant not an agent like Rush was. I cannot see any reason why he would be involved in a football decision other than to sign off what DC wants. 

I am no Pearce fan at all but there must be a reason why DC has kept him on despite being tainted by the MM regime ? Perhaps he knows where the bodies or treasure is buried ? 

[ram59]

1 hour ago, brady1993 said:

The thing is, do you honestly expect that Warne will have the current squad looking like they are on for automatics by Xmas ? Because I don't see it and I wouldn't see it of nearly any manager. 

The sacking of Rosenior has laid down the marker of where the expectation level is at and its at automatic promotion. I just don't see how the decision is justifiable otherwise. And yet I don't personally think it's realistic. Never mind that it might be a bumpy transition based on styles, it being a squad Rosenior has assembled and the pressure of expectation.

That's just your and a few other's interpretation of matters, there has been no statement from Clowes to confirm such. 

Another interpretation is that Clowes has given LR until the international break, to convince him that he is the man to take us forward and rightly or wrongly, he doesn't feel that he's up to the job. This assessment hasn't just been over 9 games either, I have been frustrated with the slow play through Cocu and Rooney's tenure, during which time LR was on the coaching staff. I hoped that when he became manager, there would be a change in the style of play, unfortunately there wasn't and even when it wasn't working LR said that the players would continue to follow his instructions and play that way.

It's got to the stage at PP whereby a goal kick for Derby is just as good as a corner for the opposition. When the ball goes out for a goal kick, it's worth popping downstairs for the toilet because by the time you get back to your seat we'll have just got over the half way line and you'll missed all the heart stopping moments when we've tried to play it out of defence. We have made a reasonable start this season, in spite of these tactics, not because of them.

[plymouthram]

3 minutes ago, Reggie Greenwood said:

People keep mentioning Pearce as the problem with LR going. The guy is an accountant not an agent like Rush was. I cannot see any reason why he would be involved in a football decision other than to sign off what DC wants. 

I am no Pearce fan at all but there must be a reason why DC has kept him on despite being tainted by the MM regime ? Perhaps he knows where the bodies or treasure is buried ? 

Certainly dug up the wrong treasure in bringing in Warne. I for one moment do not think David Clowes made the decision all by himself to axe Rosenior and bring in Warne. It must have been a board decision with the CEO having his say.

Sam Rush was a rugby player who then became a qualified solictor before getting involved in sports companies and specialised in being an agent as well as a sports lawyer. I met him on the terraces at Ashton gate back in 2012 before he took up the CEO roll in the January 2013. He was going around speaking to Derby fans, came across has a con artist to me.

[europia]

Depends on whether the players signed by Liam will adapt to the more direct football we will play under Warne. May take some time, so I suspect in or around the play offs at best this season. I guess most would have settled for that without a managerial change. 

[kevinhectoring]

11 minutes ago, ram59 said:

I have been frustrated with the slow play through Cocu and Rooney's tenure, during which time LR was on the coaching staff. I hoped that when he became manager, there would be a change in the style of play

A number of pretty good sources have told us that LR was the strategic power behind the Rooney throne last season   ie it was LR’s style of play.    
And what we’ve seen on the pitch this season supports that 

[ram59]

24 minutes ago, plymouthram said:

Yes he's got Rotherham promoted 3 times, also relegated with the same style of football (twice). Managers and coaches get wise to other coaches style of play and will know how to overcome it and beat them. Every one looks at the decisions of taking on certain coaches and have their opinions. I think this will fail with Paul Warne and his coaching staff, especially if he continues in the style he has done with Rotherham. I hope to be proven wrong, but if I ain't and it all goes wrong I won't be gloating and stating "I told you so". I will just be another Derby fan disappointed that we have wasted one, two or more years on not making any progress.

We have taken on a manager, who as only managed one team, his record is 293 matches 112 wins 65 draws and 116 defeats, thats a win ratio at 38.2%. Liam Rosenior, also only managed one team, his record 12 matches 7 wins 2 draws and 3 defeats, win ratio 58.33%.

In his defence, he has got a team promoted 3 times when up against a handful of bigger clubs with bigger budgets, followed by 2 relegations when up against  around 23 clubs with bigger budgets and established championship players playing for them, it's hardly surprising is it, just it's hardly surprising that Norwich keep getting relegated from the Premier after not completing any major transfers, after being promoted from the championship.

Statistics can be made to say virtually anything, it would be more relevant if you just quoted Lg1 results for both managers.

I have my doubts about his appointment like a lot of people, especially after believing that Paul Jewell was a good appointment at the time. I'm just hoping that it's more like an underwhelming Jim Smith appointment.

[plymouthram]

7 minutes ago, ram59 said:

In his defence, he has got a team promoted 3 times when up against a handful of bigger clubs with bigger budgets, followed by 2 relegations when up against  around 23 clubs with bigger budgets and established championship players playing for them, it's hardly surprising is it, just it's hardly surprising that Norwich keep getting relegated from the Premier after not completing any major transfers, after being promoted from the championship.

Statistics can be made to say virtually anything, it would be more relevant if you just quoted Lg1 results for both managers.

I have my doubts about his appointment like a lot of people, especially after believing that Paul Jewell was a good appointment at the time. I'm just hoping that it's more like an underwhelming Jim Smith appointment.

Jim Smith, what a good manager he was 4 promotions with Colchester, Birmingham, Oxford and the Rams. Also won promotion with Portsmouth when he was Assistant manager with Harry Redknap.

[Foreveram]

2 hours ago, brady1993 said:

No. 

What I'm saying is the expectation has been set by Clowes that we need to be on course for automatics or very much in touching distance. And I can't see Warne meeting that expectation, in a large part regardless of his ability.

Because when you take a step back and assess everything a realistic expectation of Rosenior was to be in the playoffs by the end of the season. One which we were largely on course for. But it was Rosenior's squad, his style of play and coaching (even going back to last season. We are now hiring a manager who's favoured a 352 when we don't have wing backs and who by most accounts is a massive stylistic shift. I just don't see him turning us into contenders for automatics by Xmas when it's common for a manager's position to be reassessed.

Hence why I think there is a realistic possibility he's not here come January, irrespective about how I feel about Warne or any of the decision making.

So you meant yes.

[BramcoteRam84]

Not necessarily sure my expectations have changed for this season, playoffs really should be the minimum aim. I think we would’ve achieved that with Liam, I think we’ll do the same with Warne. Promotion isn’t guaranteed.
 

Now we can look ahead to potentially 4 years of Warne. Aims should be as follows:

Year 1 - Playoffs

Year 2 - Promotion

Year 3 - 10th-12th in championship 

Year 4 - Playoffs in championship

Ive been easy saying promotion within 2 seasons but the minimum expectation is he gets us out of this league, he’s done it 3 times with a smaller club, it’s his performance in the championship where he should be judged and if we’re battling relegation playing dire football he should be sacked, likewise if he fails in the next 2 seasons to get us out this league he should also be sacked.

Within 4 years we have to get back to where we should be which is battling for the championship playoffs.

[RodleyRam]

2 hours ago, DerbyRevolution said:

Somebody show me where Clowes says it has to be promotion this season? He’s previously spoken about a time for patience and stability 

This season is preferred, but if it’s next season or the year after then so be it and that fits with the 4 year contract.

Maybe he wasn’t confident Rosenior would get us up in any season, I’d have to agree if so. The tactics he employed would never have got us out of this division on away form alone 

All of the messaging coming out of the club alludes to an expectation of promotion this season. The heavy emphasis on PW's track record and LR's lack thereof in itself raises the bar.

If that is the case, then the slightly confusing thing is 4-year contract, as this suggests that time will be given to get it right.

It's difficult to get a read on it right now.