How have our expectations now changed?

[Crewton]

4 minutes ago, RoyMac5 said:

How long did you expect Rosenior to get?

I expected him to get the full season, following Clowes' general statements about patience and "stick with us", but then I've no idea what benchmarks or targets the board had set for him or what our financial position demanded. 

[plymouthram]

My expectations have gone down, unless Paul Warne can prove me wrong. His style of football will have to change with the current squad we have. If we revert to what Rotherham have done in the last 6 years it won't be nice to watch and if he does manage to get us up, standby for a relegation season the following year. I predict the man will be sacked within 2 years.

[Jourdan]

I would expect us to be comfortably in the play-offs with a late push for the automatic promotion places if we can regroup quickly and build momentum.

Previously with Rosenior, it felt like we would be top half with an outside chance of the play offs purely due to his inexperience.

I don’t think promotion is guaranteed, but this move has definitely strengthened our case.

[RoyMac5]

22 minutes ago, Crewton said:

I expected him to get the full season, following Clowes' general statements about patience and "stick with us", but then I've no idea what benchmarks or targets the board had set for him or what our financial position demanded. 

No, I meant if he'd been made permanent.

[TigerTedd]

33 minutes ago, Crewton said:

I expected him to get the full season, following Clowes' general statements about patience and "stick with us", but then I've no idea what benchmarks or targets the board had set for him or what our financial position demanded. 

There’s a reason why he was interim from day 1 though. Was he going to be interim for the whole season. He’s been on a probation, and it’s never a given that you pass a probation.  

[Tyler Durden]

5 hours ago, Jimbo Ram said:

Usually a manager is replaced after a poor run of results. Liam has cobbled together a squad in a matter of weeks and got us to 7th. Good enough for me. How do you know Warne will improve things? As I commented earlier, if we are 10th at Christmas, 8 points from the play offs, what do you do then? 

Clowes has obviously had enough time now to make his own assessment of the managerial situation which is 7th is ok but nowhere near where he considers we should be.

Think it's also a safe bet that the small matter of our abysmal away record has been a factor in his assessment.

Which is why Rosenoir has been relieved of his duties.

The clubs statement today said as much without using weasel words - the plan was always to review the club's situation after a short period - this was shared with fans from the outset - which Clowes has stuck by - so still find it hard to comprehend why some folks are still struggling to accept the rationale behind yesterday's announcement.

Can't get my head around what depths a manager has to plumb to make it justified to remove them in their eyes - in this case Rosenoirs performance was meh - which was deemed to be just about adequate but nowhere near the performance levels Clowes expected. Which again is why he's been relieved of his duties. 

[Guest]

1 hour ago, angieram said:

Agree. That's what's odd.

 

 

1 hour ago, angieram said:

Agree. That's what's odd.

 

If you're going to attract a manager who you think is an an upgrade and is the man ideally suited to take the Rams back to the Championship then you have you have to give him the respect that he would want in terms of the security of a four-years contract. Otherwise, he probably wouldn't have come and either stayed at Rotherham or would have shown more interest in the rumoured interest from Huddersfield or Cardiff. If we were only prepared to offer a two-years contract, then the option would have been to stay with Rosenior. I presume that David Clowes thinks that the four years term is compatible with the business plan that the club is working under.

Edited September 22, 2022 by Brailsford Ram

[Crewton]

1 hour ago, Tyler Durden said:

Can't get my head around what depths a manager has to plumb to make it justified to remove them in their eyes - in this case Rosenoirs performance was meh - which was deemed to be just about adequate but nowhere near the performance levels Clowes expected. Which again is why he's been relieved of his duties. 

Depths?? We're 7th, one point outside the play-off places after playing most of the season with one misfiring striker and Richard Stearman at Centre-Half (no offence intended Rich) ? 

You can justify anything on the basis of "didn't meet expectations", particularly when those expectations haven't been explicitly stated. Now we know that it's "promotion or bust" we can understand better why they've gone for a more experienced and successful manager at this level. We'll also know when to start speculating about who's taking over next. 

I hope this proves to be a bold and hugely successful appointment. If it isn't, we've got another sizeable compensation package to fund so I hope the Board has factored that possibility into the budgets too, because Mel never did. 

[Tyler Durden]

12 minutes ago, Crewton said:

Depths?? We're 7th, one point outside the play-off places after playing most of the season with one misfiring striker and Richard Stearman at Centre-Half (no offence intended Rich) ? 

You can justify anything on the basis of "didn't meet expectations", particularly when those expectations haven't been explicitly stated. Now we know that it's "promotion or bust" we can understand better why they've gone for a more experienced and successful manager at this level. We'll also know when to start speculating about who's taking over next. 

I hope this proves to be a bold and hugely successful appointment. If it isn't, we've got another sizeable compensation package to fund so I hope the Board has factored that possibility into the budgets too, because Mel never did. 

I wasn't stating Rosenoir was plumbing the depths if you actually read my post which kind of invalidates your first paragraph. More in some people's eyes a manager should be performing abysmally for then to even be considered to be removed. Anyways.

I do have a certain nervousness about offering Warne a 4 year deal but this might be one of the factors required to entice him to drop down a division from a club on the cusp of the Championship playoff's to us.

Or it may be Clowes is that certain of his credentials then he sees it as an acceptable risk. 

[ram59]

Although technically true, people quoting our position of just outside the play offs on goal difference, is a bit misleading. 

You could also say that we are closer to 16th place than 5th place points wise or closer to relegation than automatic promotion points wise. With 20 minutes to go on Saturday, we were in 16th place, so we are just off the top of an incredibly tight group of teams.

[brady1993]

In my opinion this is a move that only makes sense if we are absolutely gunning for automatics. And if that's the case Warne needs to have us in the top 2 or just outside by Xmas or else we need to reassess. Personally it's not the way I'd have gone about it but I don't see how it can be any other way. 

My prediction of what will happen is as follows:

- We have an initial patch of decent form. The football is mostly decent or at least decent enough that it appeases most people.

- This will be followed by a lull where things get progressively ugly as we turn to increasingly more "pragmatic tactics". 

- This doesn't really pan out and our results flatline at mediocre and we are just inside the playoffs at best and quite likely down around 10th. This depends on how long the good form is and how long the slump is.

- From there it's a fair chance Warne loses his job and we either roll on a new manager going into January trying to push again. Or we hire in house and sell of the players who would fetch a decent fee in January.

[Foreveram]

24 minutes ago, brady1993 said:

In my opinion this is a move that only makes sense if we are absolutely gunning for automatics. And if that's the case Warne needs to have us in the top 2 or just outside by Xmas or else we need to reassess. Personally it's not the way I'd have gone about it but I don't see how it can be any other way. 

My prediction of what will happen is as follows:

- We have an initial patch of decent form. The football is mostly decent or at least decent enough that it appeases most people.

- This will be followed by a lull where things get progressively ugly as we turn to increasingly more "pragmatic tactics". 

- This doesn't really pan out and our results flatline at mediocre and we are just inside the playoffs at best and quite likely down around 10th. This depends on how long the good form is and how long the slump is.

- From there it's a fair chance Warne loses his job and we either roll on a new manager going into January trying to push again. Or we hire in house and sell of the players who would fetch a decent fee in January.

Your talking about sacking a manager three months into a four year contract even though he’s not even took a training session yet for crying out loud.

[RoyMac5]

I think it's now certain that we are aiming for autos and anything else will be a failure. Although going up via the play-offs would be acceptable.

Didn't get that feeling with Rosenior, tbh didn't get much of any feeling about the season from Rosenior.

[Jourdan]

29 minutes ago, brady1993 said:

In my opinion this is a move that only makes sense if we are absolutely gunning for automatics. And if that's the case Warne needs to have us in the top 2 or just outside by Xmas or else we need to reassess. Personally it's not the way I'd have gone about it but I don't see how it can be any other way. 

My prediction of what will happen is as follows:

- We have an initial patch of decent form. The football is mostly decent or at least decent enough that it appeases most people.

- This will be followed by a lull where things get progressively ugly as we turn to increasingly more "pragmatic tactics". 

- This doesn't really pan out and our results flatline at mediocre and we are just inside the playoffs at best and quite likely down around 10th. This depends on how long the good form is and how long the slump is.

- From there it's a fair chance Warne loses his job and we either roll on a new manager going into January trying to push again. Or we hire in house and sell of the players who would fetch a decent fee in January.

This is all completely unfounded. For all we know, we could do really well and be in for a really positive season.

Let’s keep in mind, averaging 2 points a game (so 20 points every 10 games) would be enough to leave us very much in the mix for top 2 and also give us room for a few bumps in the road or teething problems.

It seems that people are doom-mongering based on nothing other than the new manager doesn’t fit their ideals.

If it was another manager with a different reputation, say for producing a favourable style of football, people would be saying how we are well placed to kick on and push for promotion.

[brady1993]

4 minutes ago, Foreveram said:

Your talking about sacking a manager three months into a four year contract even though he’s not even took a training session yet for crying out loud.

No. 

What I'm saying is the expectation has been set by Clowes that we need to be on course for automatics or very much in touching distance. And I can't see Warne meeting that expectation, in a large part regardless of his ability.

Because when you take a step back and assess everything a realistic expectation of Rosenior was to be in the playoffs by the end of the season. One which we were largely on course for. But it was Rosenior's squad, his style of play and coaching (even going back to last season. We are now hiring a manager who's favoured a 352 when we don't have wing backs and who by most accounts is a massive stylistic shift. I just don't see him turning us into contenders for automatics by Xmas when it's common for a manager's position to be reassessed.

Hence why I think there is a realistic possibility he's not here come January, irrespective about how I feel about Warne or any of the decision making.

[brady1993]

3 minutes ago, Jourdan said:

This is all completely unfounded. For all we know, we could do really well and be in for a really positive season.

Let’s keep in mind, averaging 2 points a game (so 20 points every 10 games) would be enough to leave us very much in the mix for top 2 and also give us room for a few bumps in the road or teething problems.

It seems that people are doom-mongering based on nothing other than the new manager doesn’t fit their ideals.

If it was another manager with a different reputation, say for producing a favourable style of football, people would be saying how we are well placed to kick on and push for promotion.

The thing is, do you honestly expect that Warne will have the current squad looking like they are on for automatics by Xmas ? Because I don't see it and I wouldn't see it of nearly any manager. 

The sacking of Rosenior has laid down the marker of where the expectation level is at and its at automatic promotion. I just don't see how the decision is justifiable otherwise. And yet I don't personally think it's realistic. Never mind that it might be a bumpy transition based on styles, it being a squad Rosenior has assembled and the pressure of expectation.

[Jourdan]

3 minutes ago, brady1993 said:

The thing is, do you honestly expect that Warne will have the current squad looking like they are on for automatics by Xmas ? Because I don't see it and I wouldn't see it of nearly any manager. 

The sacking of Rosenior has laid down the marker of where the expectation level is at and its at automatic promotion. I just don't see how the decision is justifiable otherwise. And yet I don't personally think it's realistic. Never mind that it might be a bumpy transition based on styles, it being a squad Rosenior has assembled and the pressure of expectation.

I think the aim will be to close the gap before Christmas and then push later in the season.

We have 12 league games before Christmas. 14 if rearrangements are made. Could we get 24-28 points?

If Warne comes in and finds a way to make us more difficult to play against, why is that not possible?

On current form, we have 14 points in 9 games. We’d be trending for 72 points. So it’s not necessarily even good enough for the play-offs if we continued in that vein.

The only marker that it has laid down is that we don’t want to be left behind by the 4-5 teams beginning to break away at the top.

If we’re aiming for 6th, there’s no margin for error and we could easily finish 8th-9th. But if we are aiming for 2nd or 3rd, we might still end up 5th or 6th and all is not lost come May.

[RoyMac5]

 

[Srg]

My expectations haven’t changed. I’d also argue Clowes’ hasn’t either. If it was s*** or bust, the 4 year contract makes no sense at all. To me, he’s just made a decision on who he wants long term and for stability he’s made that choice now - rightly or wrongly. 

[DerbyRevolution]

Somebody show me where Clowes says it has to be promotion this season? He’s previously spoken about a time for patience and stability 

This season is preferred, but if it’s next season or the year after then so be it and that fits with the 4 year contract.

Maybe he wasn’t confident Rosenior would get us up in any season, I’d have to agree if so. The tactics he employed would never have got us out of this division on away form alone 

Edited September 22, 2022 by DerbyRevolution