Paul Warne appointed as Head Coach

[SirBrian]

Tim Ward brought Kevin Hector from Bradford, and when he was sacked Derby were 5th/6th from the bottom of the old 2nd division, they then gave the job to Brian Clough and at the end of the season they finished 5th from bottom, and their was plenty of grumbling about his appointment, myself included, things do not change overnight! but we all know what happened from the following season there  was a massive upward curve, when Brian had sorted the issues out, not saying Paul Warne will achieve anything like Brian, but for heavens sake give the man a chance and time.

[Ted McMinn Football Genius]

50 minutes ago, SirBrian said:

Tim Ward brought Kevin Hector from Bradford, and when he was sacked Derby were 5th/6th from the bottom of the old 2nd division, they then gave the job to Brian Clough and at the end of the season they finished 5th from bottom, and their was plenty of grumbling about his appointment, myself included, things do not change overnight! but we all know what happened from the following season there  was a massive upward curve, when Brian had sorted the issues out, not saying Paul Warne will achieve anything like Brian, but for heavens sake give the man a chance and time.

Exactly this, let’s stop being so entitled. We were on the brink of oblivion not that  long ago, with the two games in hand and a hopeful victory in both we are then just 9 points from the top!

Ok we may have lost without a shot on target on Friday, sometimes these things happen particularly against a well organised side as Ipswich clearly are.

The season and dare I say coming seasons are going to be full of highs and lows, enjoy the ride!

COYR ???

[Tamworthram]

10 minutes ago, Ted McMinn Football Genius said:

Exactly this, let’s stop being so entitled. We were on the brink of oblivion not that  long ago, with the two games in hand and a hopeful victory in both we are then just 9 points from the top!

Ok we may have lost without a shot on target on Friday, sometimes these things happen particularly against a well organised side as Ipswich clearly are.

The season and dare I say coming seasons are going to be full of highs and lows, enjoy the ride!

COYR ???

Exactly. It was a grim night for Rams fans but not nearly as grim as our 4:0 defeat at Villa in March 2019 (incidentally, Hourihane scored 2 of them). That year we of course went on to lose to them narrowly in the play off final.

The match stats make an interesting comparison (game against Ipswich in brackets):

                                       Villa (Ipswich)          Derby ( v Ipswich)
 

Possession.                  54% (53%).                46% (47%)

Shots.                             13 (16).                      3 (5)

On target.                        6. (3).                       0 (0)

[Jimbo Ram]

5 minutes ago, Tamworthram said:

Exactly. It was a grim night for Rams fans but not nearly as grim as our 4:0 defeat at Villa in March 2019 (incidentally, Hourihane scored 2 of them). That year we of course went on to lose to them narrowly in the play off final.

The match stats make an interesting comparison (game against Ipswich in brackets):

                                       Villa (Ipswich)          Derby ( v Ipswich)
 

Possession.                  54% (53%).                46% (47%)

Shots.                             13 (16).                      3 (5)

On target.                        6. (3).                       0 (0)

We had a really week team out that day, not sure what the comparison is with that game ?

[Jimbo Ram]

27 minutes ago, Ted McMinn Football Genius said:

Exactly this, let’s stop being so entitled. We were on the brink of oblivion not that  long ago, with the two games in hand and a hopeful victory in both we are then just 9 points from the top!

Ok we may have lost without a shot on target on Friday, sometimes these things happen particularly against a well organised side as Ipswich clearly are.

The season and dare I say coming seasons are going to be full of highs and lows, enjoy the ride!

COYR ???

Agree with most of that. I just think we are in a bit of a limbo period until the transfer window opens if Warne isn’t going to be flexible and play a system that suits the players he has got.

[RadioactiveWaste]

3 hours ago, Archied said:

Exciting games are what entertain me , with exciting games we win being the ultimate , I’ve watched enough football over the years to know that both Liam s style and warne s predicted style can either be exciting or boring as hell , depends how good you are at it and how the other team involved  play , long aimless balls that are cut out and head tennis in the middle of the park can be frustrating and boring as duck as can tippy tapping it round the back slow as hell going nowhere all game, it matters not which way we choose to me , just get bloody good at it??‍♂️

THIS!!!

[Jimbo Ram]

4 minutes ago, RadioactiveWaste said:

THIS!!!

THAT!!! ?

[Tamworthram]

14 minutes ago, Jimbo Ram said:

We had a really week team out that day, not sure what the comparison is with that game ?

The only players missing from the squad that had started a lot of games that season were Bryson (25), Mount (35), Hudds (21) and Lawrence (28). The squad still included Carson (30), Keough (46), Tomori (43) and Marriott (19) plus the following on the bench: Wilson (37), Johnson (22), Waghorn (29) and Bogle (39).

My only point is to agree that the season will be full of ups and down however grim it was on Friday night. I’ll put Friday night down to a bad day at the office away against a top 2 team IF we bounce back in our next two games.

[europia]

On 22/10/2022 at 00:41, RadioactiveWaste said:

I feel a bit like "we've made our bed, gonna have to lie in it this time" with Paul Warne.

Given time we'll get good at being a paul warne team. Just might take too long for this season, in which case we might as well have given Liam Rosenoir the time.

Fair point, but I imagine Mr Clowes made a judgement call and decided that Liam's football ideology just wasn't going to be successful in L1. 

[IslandExile]

Those of us daring to criticise Warne's style are met with the retort "well it's better than Rosenior's pass along the back football".

Why is it so black and white? (Pardon the pun).

Isn't there a third way?

Still playing possession football, along the ground, but moving the ball forwards and much more quickly?

[BramcoteRam84]

39 minutes ago, IslandExile said:

Those of us daring to criticise Warne's style are met with the retort "well it's better than Rosenior's pass along the back football".

Why is it so black and white? (Pardon the pun).

Isn't there a third way?

Still playing possession football, along the ground, but moving the ball forwards and much more quickly?

I think that what he’s aiming for, but it takes time. He’s said three games running kid he wants more control from midfield. He also wants us pressing like Ipswich pressed us but we’re not there yet. It’s too easy to lump him with a Warneball label, if we’re a few months down the line and we all have neck problems from looking up at the ball in the sky every week I’ll change my tune. I think he wants to take what we have and make us a bit more direct, that in my view is what we’ve been lacking, we’ve been overplaying for sometime 

Warne needs time .

[Archied]

8 hours ago, europia said:

Fair point, but I imagine Mr Clowes made a judgement call and decided that Liam's football ideology just wasn't going to be successful in L1. 

And perhaps the players needed to do that in league one were too costly and hard to get for this level , for a team to be good at that style it has to be full of players who are technically gifted or else it just breaks down ,

you can get eleven players that you can improve by getting them to run through brick walls , much much harder to raise they’re skill levels

Edited October 24, 2022 by Archied

[May Contain Nuts]

4 hours ago, Archied said:

And perhaps the players needed to do that in league one were too costly and hard to get for this level , for a team to be good at that style it has to be full of players who are technically gifted or else it just breaks down ,

you can get eleven players that you can improve by getting them to run through brick walls , much much harder to raise they’re skill levels

That's why you buy players like McGoldrick, Hourihane, Smith, Barkhuizen, Mendez-Laing & Collins and put them alongside Bird, Knight, Cashin - whilst not 'top tier technical' they all have more than enough technical ability to do well in this league and play good football.

A player's abilities won't intrinsically improve just because they're asked to run around more. You will get a better press off the ball but that only gets you so far, you still need quality on it to do anything.

The players will still have the same limitations they already had, but now the older players will tire quicker, the less technically capable players will end up rushing things, and the technically less gifted older players will both tire more and make more mistakes because they're being asked to play at a tempo above their capabilities.

Or at least that's the risk, it's certainly how it looked toward the end against Ipswich.

Players who's skillset is already based on pace on athleticism will benefit - just as long as the players supplying them with the ball aren't knackered or playing rushed, sloppy passes - but due to our limitations in the transfer market we don't have a great deal of those sort of players in our squad. 

People can complain about Rosenior's football being slow (in the most cliched, exaggerative terms possible) but in some ways it was dictated by what was available to him, what suited a number of his players at this stage of their careers.

Was the balance right? No probably not. Is the balance right so far under Warne? No probably not. If Warne can find a way to mitigate against the risks using the existing squad, so we don't just trade one problem for another, wonderful. If not we'll be needing a few transfer windows to change the faces up.

Edited October 24, 2022 by Kokosnuss

[The Scarlet Pimpernel]

Fighting for second balls is an effective tactic for players and teams with limited technical ability. Our players are not suited to second ball battles. It causes us problems. Im worried that Warne has only ever played that way. 

[Kingpin]

23 hours ago, Jimbo Ram said:

THAT!!! ?

AND THE OTHER!!

[RoyMac5]

13 hours ago, IslandExile said:

Those of us daring to criticise Warne's style are met with the retort "well it's better than Rosenior's pass along the back football".

Why is it so black and white? (Pardon the pun).

Isn't there a third way?

Still playing possession football, along the ground, but moving the ball forwards and much more quickly?

Well we won't know until Warne is allowed some recruitment will we?

But for me what we have now is better than Roseniors possession excess. Whether it will be good enough remains to be seen, but I rate Warne's chances of success more than I rated Roseniors.

[Archied]

2 hours ago, Kokosnuss said:

That's why you buy players like McGoldrick, Hourihane, Smith, Barkhuizen, Mendez-Laing & Collins and put them alongside Bird, Knight, Cashin - whilst not 'top tier technical' they all have more than enough technical ability to do well in this league and play good football.

A player's abilities won't intrinsically improve just because they're asked to run around more. You will get a better press off the ball but that only gets you so far, you still need quality on it to do anything.

The players will still have the same limitations they already had, but now the older players will tire quicker, the less technically capable players will end up rushing things, and the technically less gifted older players will both tire more and make more mistakes because they're being asked to play at a tempo above their capabilities.

Or at least that's the risk, it's certainly how it looked toward the end against Ipswich.

Players who's skillset is already based on pace on athleticism will benefit - just as long as the players supplying them with the ball aren't knackered or playing rushed, sloppy passes - but due to our limitations in the transfer market we don't have a great deal of those sort of players in our squad. 

People can complain about Rosenior's football being slow (in the most cliched, exaggerative terms possible) but in some ways it was dictated by what was available to him, what suited a number of his players at this stage of their careers.

Was the balance right? No probably not. Is the balance right so far under Warne? No probably not. If Warne can find a way to mitigate against the risks using the existing squad, so we don't just trade one problem for another, wonderful. If not we'll be needing a few transfer windows to change the faces up.

That was my point , perhaps the finances to build a warne promotion are more realistic in our situation than a Liam onr

[May Contain Nuts]

36 minutes ago, Archied said:

That was my point , perhaps the finances to build a warne promotion are more realistic in our situation than a Liam onr

Bit silly signing the players we did in the summer then if the plan was to build back up a running club rather than a football club.

If finances are the issue we could have skipped on bringing Hourihane in and  instead got 2-3 players released by teams at the lower end of League One, they likely wouldn't have had much quality about them, but they'd have been cheap and they'd run all day.

Edited October 24, 2022 by Kokosnuss

[Archied]

33 minutes ago, Kokosnuss said:

Bit silly signing the players we did in the summer then if the plan was to build back up a running club rather than a football club.

If finances are the issue we could have skipped on bringing Hourihane in and  instead got 2-3 players released by teams at the lower end of League One, they likely wouldn't have had much quality about them, but they'd have been cheap and they'd run all day.

We had our hands tied at the start of the season and we just needed to get in the players to make a squad , we got the best we could which makes sense until we sorted a long term plan 

[SirBrian]

1 hour ago, Kokosnuss said:

Bit silly signing the players we did in the summer then if the plan was to build back up a running club rather than a football club.

If finances are the issue we could have skipped on bringing Hourihane in and  instead got 2-3 players released by teams at the lower end of League One, they likely wouldn't have had much quality about them, but they'd have been cheap and they'd run all day.

Not being in the know, my guess we had to take what players would come to Derby for the low wages we could offer, and yes Hourihane appeared to be an outstanding coup by Liam, maybe Boro will come in for him in January with the offer of better wages, remember we can sell players but not buy them.