Lincoln v Derby (A) Matchday Thread

[Tombo]

2 minutes ago, MACKWORTHRAM said:

I meant to say he'll do that and then start Sibley and Dobbin the best time and swap them during the game. But carries on playing the same way.

That makes a bit more sense. That's definitely true and a bit predictable but he's a bit stuck when none of those 4 are making themselves reliable. I don't believe the system or the style of play it at fault. I think the players are shying away a bit and are short of confidence.

And that's not to excuse them, don't get me wrong. I'm not putting an arm around them and saying "poor lads, they're just not feeling up to it". 90% of the time I would if you've got a player short of confidence you can understand they've just had a tough patch

But we've been knocked by basically nothing. It's still so early, and we've played some really good stuff in the opening 8 games (some games more than others of course). We've got to have a far better mentality to succeed, it's not good enough to roll over and die before you've even been at the club 3 months.

[RoyMac5]

 

[Rich3478]

Wildsmith 6 did nothing wrong 

roberts 3 really poor, fozzy a much better option

davies 4 one of his worst games for us, probably rusty after a while out

cashin 4 poor and at fault for the second

knight 5 worst game of the season, kept going at least. Penalty was poor

Bird 4 achieving nothing this season

hourihane 4 same as bird, midfield needs changing

sibley 2 terrible

dobbin 6 at least looked interested

nml 5 worst game, still could have been involved in a couple of goals

Collins 5 needs to get involved in the game more

Subs

barkhuizen 5 should’ve scored at least one

Mcgoldrick 5 did little

osula 2, did he touch the ball?

 

[Tombo]

2 minutes ago, Rev said:

Away from home, this isn't a lapse in form. 

It's been the norm since Cocu took charge, and we're somehow getting worse, despite the quality of the squad improving when compared to the opposition.

Liam has been there throughout, that he seems powerless to effect change is concerning.

It is concerning, definitely. Unfortunately this is where I do the old "let's not be hasty" routine, which yes, I believe in

Give the guy a chance to affect the change. It takes more than 3 months to see the mettle of a man

[BramcoteRam84]

34 minutes ago, Ellafella said:

I'm not sure it is about performance though. I think it's about something more fundamental. Shape, style of play, and tactics seem to be ill-matched. This will be the fourth away game in the League and we have yet to score a goal. Add to that, we haven't exactly been banging them in at home. Every game we have played has been a right royal battle...4 games away without scoring, that's 6 hours without scoring.  

Don’t like xG but when we were struggling away from home last season people used it as a way to demonstrate we’re not creating chances. This season we’re in the top 4/top 6 xG and not sticking the ball in the net. What’s that now 65 shots in 4 away games?! We were crap tonight but still could’ve had 4.

I don’t think it is tactics and set up. Individual errors and sloppy play cost us, put us under pressure and in the final third we had so many good situations and final ball was poor. Too many individuals off it (again), Curtis looked like he hasn’t played football for a month, Bird and Hourihane is an issue, been poor 2 games running now, need to find a way to deal with the extra attention or it needs changing. 
 

Two bad performances in a row and continuing in that vein we won’t be where we want to be. We need to win Saturday now and perform better to stop this rot. We are capable of much better. 
 

But 8 games in mid table 3 points off playoffs while still finding our feet at this level and playing catch up due to late preseason. As frustrating as it is it’s about what I expected.

[Tombo]

Just now, BramcoteRam84 said:

Don’t like xG but when we were struggling away from home last season people used it as a way to demonstrate we’re not creating chances. This season we’re in the top 4/top 6 xG and not sticking the ball in the net. What’s that now 65 shots in 4 away games?! We were crap tonight but still could’ve had 4.

This is largely why I have sympathy for Liam Rosenior. You can lead a horse to water but you can't make them drink.

We create chances, we don't score the chances. LR says we practice our finishing constantly. These players have been goalscorers their whole career. Other than start putting himself on the pitch what exactly is he supposed to do to make the ball cross the line?!?!

[lrm14]

If anything is taken away from today I hope it's that this Bird and Hourihane combination in midfield simply doesn't work. As a pair they lack bite off the ball and on the ball neither of them offers any drive going forward so we always look off the pace in the middle. Drop one of them for Knight or Smith and I think our performances will improve drastically.

[papa_lazarou]

Next 2 games will be key. We will be 10 games in by then. Ideally both games need to be won as we are at home to Wycombe and Cheltenham.

If things don't improve and performances pickup then I think changes with the coaching team have to come into play (and doesn't necessarily mean to sack LR but to bring in an experienced head for some support). I would like to LR to succeed, he has to be given credit for bringing in these players and ultimately elevating people's expectations because of the calibre of these players. I also agree we have to take into account what we've been through as a club, and be thankful that we survived, but like everyone else it's inevitable we want success..... We are Derby County ?. 

Tactical changes are clearly needed as the shape sounded off tonight, and I was listening to BBC Radio Lincoln commentary due to my location. Obviously they agreed with the penalty award and offside decisions on our goals, but also pointed out the passages of play where we controlled the ball for periods but with no end product. Cashin was singled out as having a stinker by the commentators. Always interesting to get another perspective.

Maybe take stock again after the next couple of games, sometimes a bit of patience can bare fruit (he says crossing his fingers).

 

Edited September 13, 2022 by papa_lazarou
Typo

[BramcoteRam84]

2 minutes ago, Tombo said:

This is largely why I have sympathy for Liam Rosenior. You can lead a horse to water but you can't make them drink.

We create chances, we don't score the chances. LR says we practice our finishing constantly. These players have been goalscorers their whole career. Other than start putting himself on the pitch what exactly is he supposed to do to make the ball cross the line?!?!

If we were still barely creating a chance away from home the comments about the long standing poor away form would have more merit. But we’re creating bucketloads of chances away (Shrewsbury apart) just not taking them, ironically we’re creating less at home but seem to be more clinical 

[MACKWORTHRAM]

2 minutes ago, Tombo said:

That makes a bit more sense. That's definitely true and a bit predictable but he's a bit stuck when none of those 4 are making themselves reliable. I don't believe the system or the style of play it at fault. I think the players are shying away a bit and are short of confidence.

And that's not to excuse them, don't get me wrong. I'm not putting an arm around them and saying "poor lads, they're just not feeling up to it". 90% of the time I would if you've got a player short of confidence you can understand they've just had a tough patch

But we've been knocked by basically nothing. It's still so early, and we've played some really good stuff in the opening 8 games (some games more than others of course). We've got to have a far better mentality to succeed, it's not good enough to roll over and die before you've even been at the club 3 months.

I take your point mate but I honestly don't think we really have played good stuff.

First half at Charlton was good, ended up losing cos the second half was abysmal.

First half against Barnsley was good. 

Last 20 against Oxford were OK.

Shrewsbury and Fleetwood very similar.

Peterborough we got out of jail against 10 men.

Tonight was pitiful.

I've never been sold on Rosenior, going back to the time him and Rooney were joint until Rooney took it full time. He talks a good game and it's like he's been media trained to within an inch of his life. He says things that he believes we want to hear, but the never ever backs up what he says.

Praises Oduroh and Rooney in the cup games they've played, says he's not afraid to throw players in, says nobody, not even players like Hourihane are guaranteed a start.

Not one single person would have moaned tonight if he'd have started Oduroh and moved Knight into midfield, infact, I'd argue most would have been very happy with it. I doubt many would have moaned if Rooney had come in for Bird.

I came out of Plymouth hoping that it was a blessing in disguise and that it had shown us up and maybe we needed that kick up the backside.

Rosenior has mentioned how good it's been having all this time on the training ground to work and then they go out and put out a performance like that?

I genuinely wanted things to work for him, because he seems like a really nice bloke. I've kept quiet with my reservations about him because I wanted to see him do well. But there is nothing here to suggest to me we'll be anywhere near the top 6.

Only one team have scored less goals than us and to get 2 points and score 0 goals from Charlton, Shrewsbury, Fleetwood and Lincoln away is unforgivable.

If anything the performances have been getting worse.

Teams have found out exactly how to stop us and Rosenior hasn't got the first clue how to change it.

Let's not forget that Rosenior was a massive part on the coaching field (By Rooney's admission he left Rosenior to the coaching) in which we won 3 out of 23 away games.

Well now it's 3 out of 27.

Not good enough.

Clearly Clowes isn't sold on him either. Otherwise he would be in charge by now.

[RoyMac5]

7 minutes ago, Tombo said:

This is largely why I have sympathy for Liam Rosenior. You can lead a horse to water but you can't make them drink.

We create chances, we don't score the chances. LR says we practice our finishing constantly. These players have been goalscorers their whole career. Other than start putting himself on the pitch what exactly is he supposed to do to make the ball cross the line?!?!

Leave Collins on the bench?

[Crewton]

Knee jerk reaction : poor on and off the pitch.

More measured analysis tomorrow after a good breakfast. 

[Bris Vegas]

The major flaw I see playing this way is that we almost have to score the perfect goal to actually find the net.

When you look back at some of our goals and chances this season, they have generally come from winning the ball high up the pitch by making the most of an opposition error or via a set-piece.

For every goal we have scored from possession-ball football, we have conceded one too by losing the ball in our own defensive third trying to play out.

We’re not Man City. We don’t have the players to be able to move the ball through the thirds comfortably before creating via moments of magic.

There is a reason we haven’t scored away from home yet. We make it easy for the opposition to just sit everybody behind the ball and wait for us to make a mistake.

I was a big fan of Phillip Cocu but saw a similar flaw. Without a high press to force mistakes, we are relying on scoring that perfect team goal which is far more difficult with a squad of our ability compared to simply lumping it long and feeding off second balls.

[nogbad van 50]

13 minutes ago, Rich3478 said:

Wildsmith 6 did nothing wrong 

roberts 3 really poor, fozzy a much better option

davies 4 one of his worst games for us, probably rusty after a while out

cashin 4 poor and at fault for the second

knight 5 worst game of the season, kept going at least. Penalty was poor

Bird 4 achieving nothing this season

hourihane 4 same as bird, midfield needs changing

sibley 2 terrible

dobbin 6 at least looked interested

nml 5 worst game, still could have been involved in a couple of goals

Collins 5 needs to get involved in the game more

Subs

barkhuizen 5 should’ve scored at least one

Mcgoldrick 5 did little

osula 2, did he touch the ball?

 

It seems as if every error he makes results in a goal-perhaps it’s time to pair Davies with Stearman for a couple of games to give him a breather

[Ellafella]

19 minutes ago, Tombo said:

By the way we haven't failed to score at home all season. And in 4 home games in the league we've scored 7 goals. 3 games with 2 goals and only the opening day where we only scored once. Peterborough at home in particular was littered with chances and should have been a full-on pasting.

It's easy to point to these nebulous things like "tactics" and "shape" and then never have to follow up with what you're going on about or if you even know what you're talking about. You can just say "nah, tactics are wrong, shape is wrong". Reminds me of when people used to say "we're missing passion"

I'd like to know exactly what you think is wrong.

Have we been short of opportunities? No.

Have we lost possession too often? No, our possession stats are always sky high.

Have we defended poorly? Yeah, I'd say so in spells but we've conceded 8 goals in 8, which includes conceding 3 in one game at home to Plymouth.

There's nothing wrong with the instructions to my eyes. Nothing wrong with what we've tried to do with the ball, or our shape without the ball. We just seem to play with an remarkable amount of fear for the talent that we have. I think we're suffering from what many of us thought we might and that's that we are a target, and every game is the opposition's cup final. That's what makes away games so difficult is that pressure cooker that leads to mistakes. That's the "royal battle" you're referring to.

I'll absolutely agree that the buck stops with the boss and he has to do something to get it right, but this is what you call a lapse in form - don't tell me you've been watching football this long and never seen one before - which has happened because when we were playing well we didn't finish off the teams in front of us and now we're crippled by second-guessing. It was clear to see when we nearly threw away the two goal cushion vs Peterborough, and then when we did spectacularly vs Plymouth.

You don't get a two goal cushion to throw away if your tactics and shape are wrong. You don't get to get that far. Think about it

You raise some interesting points @Tombo at length and I'm going to respond at length; but not now. The result is too raw; But I will address every point, tomorrow. For now, though I can't let the folowing go, so suffice to say:

"...easy to point to these nebulous things like "tactics" and "shape" and then never have to follow up with what you're going on about or if you even know what you're talking about. "  Well, I played competitive football for 32 years;  I represented my District FA at 17 years old, and played the likes of Aston Villa, Wolves, Walsall to name but 3. After I finished playing, I then coached for 12 years, and my teams won promotions and a League twice. Some of my teams' players were scouted by Leicester City, Florist, Burton Albion so my coaching seemed to help players become better.  So, I should know something about tactics, shape and "nebulous" things like that. Does that sound like I'm boasting?...It may read that way but you are the one who questioned my football "understanding" thereby forcing me to put it out there.

Just one other thing for now: You wrote: 

"You don't get a two goal cushion to throw away if your tactics and shape are wrong. You don't get to get that far. Think about it  " .

I find that a very odd thing that you say, and I'll explain why fully when I respond tomorrow, not least because most/a lot of people at the game at half-time recognized that our 2 goal, HT lead flattered us immensely and could see that despite being 2-0 down, Plymouth had control of the game for much of the half.  Was I shocked that we lost 3-2?; absolutely not. I said to my friends at HT that without a change in midfield we could easily let the game slip away. And so it happened. 

So, I'll leave it there for now and pick it up again tomorrow.  

[Charliegeorge1962]

3 minutes ago, RoyMac5 said:

Leave Collins on the bench?

You mean Derek Hales MK2.

[Rich84]

21 minutes ago, Gritstone Ram said:

I bet the match was better 

Paint drying wod have been better than the match, less frustrating 

[Archied]

Ok my first moan since we survived as a club and yes that’s what being a football fan is , we are stable and we have decent players for this level so here goes , back to being a derby fan,

from the first few games we are going backwards rather than improving ,

nothing wrong with playing out from the back if that’s what you do ,, WE DONT , we play around at the back trying to look composed then smash a diagonal out of play or a long ball to an opposition defender ,

do we create ?  Yes ,we create panic at the back for ourselves 

for me rosenior is not the man for the job , I don’t pretend to know who’s available who is but it’s not rosenior 

tonight was a shambles on the pitch , total unorganised shambles , yes the majority of players played very poorly but that happens when there’s no structure , poor passing , poor running off the ball , passing to players in dangerous situations,

we have decent players for this level going backwards looking worse game on game,

sure rosenior is a nice man but I would rather have someone who knows the job and is good at it ,

by all means throw this post back in my face if he turns it round and we have a good season but sadly I don’t see it under him

[Rich3478]

8 minutes ago, MACKWORTHRAM said:

I take your point mate but I honestly don't think we really have played good stuff.

First half at Charlton was good, ended up losing cos the second half was abysmal.

First half against Barnsley was good. 

Last 20 against Oxford were OK.

Shrewsbury and Fleetwood very similar.

Peterborough we got out of jail against 10 men.

Tonight was pitiful.

I've never been sold on Rosenior, going back to the time him and Rooney were joint until Rooney took it full time. He talks a good game and it's like he's been media trained to within an inch of his life. He says things that he believes we want to hear, but the never ever backs up what he says.

Praises Oduroh and Rooney in the cup games they've played, says he's not afraid to throw players in, says nobody, not even players like Hourihane are guaranteed a start.

Not one single person would have moaned tonight if he'd have started Oduroh and moved Knight into midfield, infact, I'd argue most would have been very happy with it. I doubt many would have moaned if Rooney had come in for Bird.

I came out of Plymouth hoping that it was a blessing in disguise and that it had shown us up and maybe we needed that kick up the backside.

Rosenior has mentioned how good it's been having all this time on the training ground to work and then they go out and put out a performance like that?

I genuinely wanted things to work for him, because he seems like a really nice bloke. I've kept quiet with my reservations about him because I wanted to see him do well. But there is nothing here to suggest to me we'll be anywhere near the top 6.

Only one team have scored less goals than us and to get 2 points and score 0 goals from Charlton, Shrewsbury, Fleetwood and Lincoln away is unforgivable.

If anything the performances have been getting worse.

Teams have found out exactly how to stop us and Rosenior hasn't got the first clue how to change it.

Let's not forget that Rosenior was a massive part on the coaching field (By Rooney's admission he left Rosenior to the coaching) in which we won 3 out of 23 away games.

Well now it's 3 out of 27.

Not good enough.

Clearly Clowes isn't sold on him either. Otherwise he would be in charge by now.

Just looked and we didn’t win any of the last 9 away the seasons before either. So 3 wins in 36 over almost two years.

[Archied]

10 minutes ago, BramcoteRam84 said:

If we were still barely creating a chance away from home the comments about the long standing poor away form would have more merit. But we’re creating bucketloads of chances away (Shrewsbury apart) just not taking them, ironically we’re creating less at home but seem to be more clinical 

We did not create bucket loads tonight