POLL: Nottingham Forest's return season to the Premier League

[Day]

6 minutes ago, Bris Vegas said:

I think Leeds were a different case. They should have gone up the year before but for a late collapse and then they easily won the league. They then spent on quality players like Raphinha.

Forest are nowhere near that level. The same could be said of Brentford.

Remove the loan players and Forest aren’t any stronger than say Blackburn Rovers. They rode momentum in a poor Championship and had some top quality players in on loan.

Of the three going up they are the weakest. That doesn’t mean they can’t improve. But I wouldn’t put them in the same bracket as Leeds, Brentford and even Sheffield United who made gradual progression. Forest’s promotion came out the blue.

The only other sides who did something similar was probably Blackpool or Palace. The PL, however, is at a different level now. 

I don’t think it’s sour grapes. I actually think it’s a fresh change to see Forest promoted. I think they are in for a loooong season.

They will probably start off with a run of games like Everton (H), Southampton (A) and Villa at (H), competing well but picking up one or two points only. Then they’ll have like City away and get battered, then they’ll have somebody like Brentford and Bournemouth at home (dubbed a winnable game). They’ll lose that and then it’ll hit them that they are out of their depth. The owner will panic, sack Cooper after about nine games and replace him with a foreigner nobody has heard of… Or Sam Allardyce.

I can see it.

I find it hard to disagree with any of that, it’s just you can ride the wave on mentality alone, even if you don’t have the ability. 

Bad start could easily see Cooper gone, Stavros comes across as being fairly ambitious, more experienced at the level manager comes in, say a Dyche and who knows.

Super cautious of completely writing them off at this stage, the players won’t have sobered up yet from the party, a lot will happen between now and August.

The mid season break for the World Cup would also benefit teams down the bottom end of the table, especially teams that have gone up with players playing in the top flight for the first time.

[Gee SCREAMER !!]

46 minutes ago, Kernow said:

I think we would've struggled if we went up under Lampard purely because we'd have had to spend a lot of money just to keep the same team we'd have got promoted with. Forest are in the same boat. They've relied heavily on the loan players, so I think they'll think it's pretty important to try and keep as many of them as possible.

The three most influential, Spence, Davis and Garner are going to be very expensive. Spence has been linked to 20 odd million pound bids, Davis is likely to be £10mil at least, and Garner probably isn't attainable if ten Hag really does want to look at him with a view to including him in United's first team.

That's a lot to spend just to have the same team, which currently hasn't got enough quality to stay up. That's not even a dig at Forest, I don't think these days there are many Championship teams who could stay up without adding to their squad.

If they don't get the loanees back, they'll have to spend on someone else. No guarantees in the PL whether someone is going to be a hit or a flop, no matter how expensive they are. I think their recruitment team are going to have to get it spot on or it may be a bit of a long season for them.

EDIT: While I was typing, @Carnero seemed to make the same point as me in significantly fewer words!

They'll get both for 12 million - some payable on staying up, or get Garner on another loan.  Garner won't bother Uniteds first team other than as a squad player.  Davis gets 3 goals a year.

[Bris Vegas]

4 minutes ago, David said:

I find it hard to disagree with any of that, it’s just you can ride the wave on mentality alone, even if you don’t have the ability. 

Bad start could easily see Cooper gone, Stavros comes across as being fairly ambitious, more experienced at the level manager comes in, say a Dyche and who knows.

Super cautious of completely writing them off at this stage, the players won’t have sobered up yet from the party, a lot will happen between now and August.

The mid season break for the World Cup would also benefit teams down the bottom end of the table, especially teams that have gone up with players playing in the top flight for the first time.

Completely forgot about the World Cup. Yeah that could help reset.

Villa looked down the other year until Covid hit. Gave them a chance to reset and the climbed out of it.

I don’t expect Forest to break our points total or anything. But if Fulham, Norwich and Watford can’t stay up after multiple tries, I don’t see why Forest will be any different given they are starting from a weaker position.

Time will tell I guess and I’m open to being ridiculed with my prediction that they won’t get more than 28 points next season.

[REDCAR]

Leicester we’re 5000/1 to win the league in 2015/2016…. Just saying.

Edited May 30, 2022 by REDCAR

[Rammy03]

2 hours ago, Andicis said:

How have Leeds done well? They had the first season where Bielsa's style caught teams off guard, then they scraped clear of relegation by the skin of their teeth. ''yo yo clubs'' like Norwich consistently get automatic promotion. 

Consistently get automatic promotion to then get immediately relegated. What is the point? Forest will not adopt that business model that's for sure

[JfR]

36 minutes ago, Gee SCREAMER !! said:

They had the chance to take him back in January or re loan him for a fee or even flog him then.  Always found it a bit odd.

To be fair, I can understand why they didn't recall him for themselves in January. Both Boro and Fulham (when he was in their academy) had issues with his attitude, and he was sent out on loan because he'd had falling outs with several managers while at Boro. From Boro fans, it sounds like he plays very well when he can be bothered, but if he's not interested he's awful, and he just didn't want to be at Boro. It would explain the weird situation where they have an asset that they think is worth £20m, but haven't kept him for themselves, because he wouldn't be playing to a level where he'd be worth that much if he was playing for them.

[Andicis]

15 minutes ago, Rammy03 said:

Consistently get automatic promotion to then get immediately relegated. What is the point? Forest will not adopt that business model that's for sure

I don't think that they have a plan to get relegated. It's difficult to stay up, and they live within their means. If you mean Forest will throw money at it, that is absolutely no guarantee of anything. 

[Ramslad1992]

I said before a ball was even kicked that the winners of the play off final will finish bottom… by a fair margin in my opinion. 

[RadioactiveWaste]

Leeds and Forest relegated, Derby promoted, a championship putting the band back together season, come summer 23 we'll all be happier.

[Finch]

Forecast- Florists struggle manager sacked back to Championship.

[BramcoteRam84]

Too early to completely write them off given they only got promoted yesterday but not much time to prepare and their squad needs an overhaul to even have a hope. The number loans they have us an issue so going to have to make those permanent which will dent the budget before they get started. Spence and Garner are premier league quality but will probably cost £40m for the pair. £30m if being generous and there is lots of interest in Spence from the big clubs (yes Forest you are not one of the big clubs). Davis will do a job but won’t get goals, Zinkernagel and Lowe aren’t premier league quality. 
 

Then you look at the Forest owned players. Surridge is your classic decent in champ won’t cut it in premier league, Lolley not premier league standard, Worrall Yates, Samba, McKenna all top 6 championship/bottom 3 prem players. They rave about Mighten but given lack of game time he probably needs a season in the championship. That leaves Brennan Johnson who is genuine premier league quality now and a potential future star who could see playing for a top 6 team. 

Their squad needs major investment just to compete and if £60m is the number it probably isn’t enough. That’s cold hard facts. If they could stay up it sets them out well but could also serve them to do a Burnley take the cash recruit for the future get relegated with a view of trying to get straight back and then be in a stronger position to make a fist of it.

But hey we’d all swap positions with them right now.

 

 

[Ambitious]

The nature of the Premier League just means it’s so hard to get up and stay up for more than one season, nevertheless they’re part of the parachute payment brigade now so will probably see 3 or 4 more promotions (and relegations) in the next 10 years.

[Will the Ram]

6 hours ago, Andicis said:

How have Leeds done well? They had the first season where Bielsa's style caught teams off guard, then they scraped clear of relegation by the skin of their teeth. ''yo yo clubs'' like Norwich consistently get automatic promotion. 

Their first season in the PL there were no fans in stadiums. That could’ve been a big factor in them doing well that season (as they also won the league when 2019/20 concluded under the same conditions). Before lockdown they looked like they might of had a wobble again.

[NottsRam77]

12 hours ago, Kernow said:

I think we would've struggled if we went up under Lampard purely because we'd have had to spend a lot of money just to keep the same team we'd have got promoted with. Forest are in the same boat. They've relied heavily on the loan players, so I think they'll think it's pretty important to try and keep as many of them as possible.

The three most influential, Spence, Davis and Garner are going to be very expensive. Spence has been linked to 20 odd million pound bids, Davis is likely to be £10mil at least, and Garner probably isn't attainable if ten Hag really does want to look at him with a view to including him in United's first team.

That's a lot to spend just to have the same team, which currently hasn't got enough quality to stay up. That's not even a dig at Forest, I don't think these days there are many Championship teams who could stay up without adding to their squad.

If they don't get the loanees back, they'll have to spend on someone else. No guarantees in the PL whether someone is going to be a hit or a flop, no matter how expensive they are. I think their recruitment team are going to have to get it spot on or it may be a bit of a long season for them.

EDIT: While I was typing, @Carnero seemed to make the same point as me in significantly fewer words!

Agree

what i will say is theyll be a lot of free agents this summer around the world cos of covid and clubs being careful and forest imo will instantly have greater pulling power than the likes of bourmuff, fulham, palace, soton and brentford cos of who they are and what they represent.

if they recruit well, which their new team(guy from barnsely) , whivh in his first year hasnt done bad at all, stand a great chance 

[Sparkle]

Their loans will be interesting -will they want to keep them? - spence has premiership admirers and he’s a London boy so Tottenham is likely - Garner I don’t rate so expect him back there - Zingernackers will probably be kept and used by Watford in the championship again unless forest pay a fortune for someone they always sub off - Davies is a Villa player and they have said he isn’t for sale whilst Lowe will be back at Sheffield United in the championship as forest won’t want him next season. 
their own Johnson is out of contract so could sign for a personal fortune at the likes of spurs.

Expect to see half the Greek side transferred to the pink seats which the manager won’t want whilst expect him gone within the season coming, with the red doggies saying where has the money gone 

[BaaLocks]

[Asanovic70]

I think Villa are a good barometer. Cooper's impact greater, but Smith turned around an underachieving squad mid-season. Admittedly, they had been play-off runners-up the previous season. Smith's stock was high, he'd done well at Brentford, though Cooper took Swansea to two play-off finishes.

Villa went on to spend big but still needed a final day win at West Ham to guarantee safety. Leeds have spent £150m to finish 17th two seasons later.

Smith is a progressive coach, the damage already done at Norwich by the time he came in, but it shows if you don't have the tools, there's only so much you can do.

Amidst all their euphoria, there was an interesting article on the bbc reflecting on Forest's long spell out of the top flight:

Nottingham Forest: Charting the Reds' 23-year journey back to the Premier League - BBC Sport

I thought this section was relevant to us in our current situation/plight.

Quote

 

It was in the third division, however, that Fray feels Forest found much-needed stability under then chairman and owner Nigel Doughty - who had bought the club for £11m in 1999, saving them from administration - and manager Colin Calderwood.

"You are not going to be right on the pitch unless you are right off the pitch as well," Fray said.

"For so many reasons and for so many years something was wrong at Forest.

"The most stable bit of structure they had in the intervening period, until now, was in that time coming back out of League One, when they had gone to the bottom and were starting to climb back up again.

"It's hard to pick out their period in League One as being anywhere near a successful period in the club's history, but they had the structure in place behind the scenes at that point to get the club back on its feet."

 

That's what we need to do if/once the takeover goes through, use this dismal period to redefine the club in the right direction. The flipside to this is that Forest went on to overspend under Doughty. Clubs don't always learn their lessons or forget the past. Morris had the example of Lionel Pickering, of '07-'08. We are another clear example of this boom & bust cycle.

[Crewton]

1 hour ago, NottsRam77 said:

forest imo will instantly have greater pulling power than the likes of bourmuff, fulham, palace, soton and brentford cos of who they are and what they represent.

Three of those clubs are in London and, with due respect to the attractions of the City of Nottingham and the Borough of Rushcliffe, it ain't London. TBH, I know Southampton and Bournemouth well and the South Coast has allot of attractions, particularly as a place for kids to grow up. 

So you're left with the draw of the achievements of a time before any current footballer was born, and a Brian Clough Blue Plaque. Maybe some players will be swayed by the Steve Cooper project, but how many? 

[Premier ram]

Have a feeling Spence will end up at Arsenal , so will need replacing , ive read this morning Villa want 15 million for Davis , think they can do better for that sort of money , if Cooper gets the recruitment right then Forest have a fighting chance , as for who will be bottom 3 , Bournemouth are the only ones i can name that will be in there , Fulham like Forest need to get their recruitment right , of the rest i think Leeds , Brentford and Southampton are in the most danger

[Sparkle]

34 minutes ago, Premier ram said:

Have a feeling Spence will end up at Arsenal , so will need replacing , ive read this morning Villa want 15 million for Davis , think they can do better for that sort of money , if Cooper gets the recruitment right then Forest have a fighting chance , as for who will be bottom 3 , Bournemouth are the only ones i can name that will be in there , Fulham like Forest need to get their recruitment right , of the rest i think Leeds , Brentford and Southampton are in the most danger

That’s about the bottom six