Mucker1884 Posted July 21, 2022 Share Posted July 21, 2022 2 hours ago, Ewetube said: That's a really interesting thought! What is it they say about shipping bulls to a bull-shipper? Just now, Turk Thrust said: Eh? No, what do they say? "You can ship a bull-shipper to water, but a pencil must be lead!" You're welcome. Turk Thrust 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
duncanjwitham Posted July 21, 2022 Share Posted July 21, 2022 10 hours ago, RAM1966 said: The real questions of course need to be answered by the inept Quantuma who did not insist on the £5M non-refundable deposit. Quantuma insist on £5m, all the bidders refuse, and then they liquidate us? That's the plan? Quantuma basically had zero leverage throughout the entire process - they were entirely at the whims of the various bidders. It's not like a normal sale process where the current owner has absolute power to place conditions, and ultimately decide not to sell if they didn't feel the deal was right. Don't get me wrong, Quantuma appear to have done a pretty poor job, but they aren't supposed to be miracle workers. Reggie Greenwood, FlyBritishMidland, RoyMac5 and 4 others 1 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RAM1966 Posted July 21, 2022 Share Posted July 21, 2022 52 minutes ago, Mihangel said: It's an interesting piece, not without its issues - I don't understand the focus on 'access to the bank accounts', I know, literally, dozens of people who are producing financial results for major companies, none of them will have access to a bank account nor will they ever see a bank statement! Nevertheless it paints a picture that is probably far from unique in ambitious startups, lots of ingenuity, lacking in oversight and governance. All major businesses have a Chief Finance Officer (CFO), some may double up with other roles such as chief Operating Officer. The bottom line is whoever the CFO is signs off the accounts along with the CEO before presenting to the equivalence of companies house. Thats a standard around the financial world, it also provides checks and balances that neither are on the fiddle. I've no issue with Kirchner, as unusal as it may be being the only person able to authorise payments. However the CFO MUST see the bank statements to be able to account for monies and keep the accounts up to date. It would hace stopped this from happening. What Kirchner has been alledged to have been doing smells fishier than Grimsby dock yard, know doubt his investors will be calling in the Feds and if whats been reported is true, Kirchner looks to be in deep trouble and could well be heading for clink. What I do not get though is the lack of due diligence, checks and balances by his investors. It beggers belief that nobody saw through him. Its going to be a very interesting couple of years following this as it unravels, I suspect CK is not feeling quiet so cocky now! Crewton 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RAM1966 Posted July 21, 2022 Share Posted July 21, 2022 (edited) 16 minutes ago, duncanjwitham said: Quantuma insist on £5m, all the bidders refuse, and then they liquidate us? That's the plan? Quantuma basically had zero leverage throughout the entire process - they were entirely at the whims of the various bidders. It's not like a normal sale process where the current owner has absolute power to place conditions, and ultimately decide not to sell if they didn't feel the deal was right. Don't get me wrong, Quantuma appear to have done a pretty poor job, but they aren't supposed to be miracle workers. There were alternative credible bids, its just this fairy tale bid was the best and Q probably were pinching themselves when this offer came in. There's an old saying if something looks to good to be true,it probably is. Its clear what Kirchner was offering did not make sense: No ground purchase, its clearly worth more than £23m. Agreeing to pay 35% over 3 years, its costing the new invester more money and would be paid out of the allowable spend in the imposed business plan, where as 25% upfront would not have presented this issue. Both of the points above point to a man who simply did not have the funds, yet many on here thought he was the messiah. I even got slated when I suggested the above really did not look right or make any business sense whatsoever. Any credible party that seriously wanted PB status should have been confident enough to put their money behind the bid. Why make it a stipulatiin if you are going to allow tyre kickers to take the p*ss? Sorry, but for me this is just another sign of how poorly Q handled the whole issue.... Edited July 21, 2022 by RAM1966 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SamUltraRam Posted July 21, 2022 Share Posted July 21, 2022 (edited) Is it possible that Rooney quit as manager because he realised how his close association with this charlatan almost resulted in killing our club ? Edited July 21, 2022 by SamUltraRam Steve How Hard? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
duncanjwitham Posted July 21, 2022 Share Posted July 21, 2022 10 minutes ago, RAM1966 said: There were alternative credible bids, its just this fairy tale bid was the best and Q probably were pinching themselves when this offer came in. There's an old saying if something looks to good to be true,it probably is. Its clear what Kirchner was offering did not make sense: No ground purchase, its clearly worth more than £23m. Agreeing to pay 35% over 3 years, its costing the new invester more money and would be paid out of the allowable spend in the imposed business plan, where as 25% upfront would not have presented this issue. Both of the points above point to a man who simply did not have the funds, yet many on here thought he was the messiah. I even got slated when I suggested the above really did not look right or make any business sense whatsoever. Any credible party that seriously wanted PB status should have been confident enough to put their money behind the bid. Why make it a stipulatiin if you are going to allow tyre kickers to take the p*ss? Sorry, but for me this is just another sign of how poorly Q handled the whole issue.... Ah yes, Quantuma's biggest mistake was not simply selling us to one of those guys with a massive pile of money to burn. Silly Quantuma! The facts are, the amount of debt we had far outweighed the actual value in the club/stadium, and arguably the minimum price to even keep us as a league club was higher than the actual value in the club. So at that stage, every bid is scraping around trying to reduce costs and make an offer viable. If we assume Kirchner was an honest bidder (for arguments sake), then saving £23m on the ground and reducing the upfront cost was his way of making the offer into what he thought was viable. Everything we heard about Ashley's bid was about slashing costs (wanting Morris to pay for the stadium, Quantuma to reduce their fees etc), he clearly wasn't going to swan in and throw £50m+ to buy the stadium and clear the debts upfront. Appleby and co seemed to be forever scrabbling around for investors, with no suggestion he ever really got a solid group together. The Binnies disappeared very quickly when it became clear they didn't have the funds. Who were these other credible bidders that were going to pay a big deposit, buy the stadium and pay 25% up front? Clowes has basically been forced into burning his own money to save his football club as a last resort. 48 hours, FlyBritishMidland, Reggie Greenwood and 4 others 4 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elwood P Dowd Posted July 21, 2022 Share Posted July 21, 2022 We ended up with a hat trick of tyre kickers. Crewton and Ramrob 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ram-Alf Posted July 21, 2022 Share Posted July 21, 2022 5 minutes ago, Elwood P Dowd said: We ended up with a hat trick of tyre kickers. Quartet, Henry Gabay, The fake Sheikh, Th illusionist with a fake apartment in Barcelona, And a good salesman for best buy hintonsboots 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ghost of Clough Posted July 21, 2022 Share Posted July 21, 2022 8 minutes ago, RAM1966 said: There were alternative credible bids, its clear what Kirchner was offering did not make sense: The administrators are legally obliged to accept the best offer for the creditors. The evidence presented to them (the EFL, and other parties) must have shown he had the money. The latest article from Forbes somewhat hints at why the money got held up. 8 minutes ago, RAM1966 said: No ground purchase, its clearly worth more than £23m. Agreeing to pay 35% over 3 years, its costing the new invester more money and would be paid out of tge allowable soend in the business plan, where as 25% upfront would not have presented this issue. As I told you several times in the past, the financial difference between 25% and 35% was only about £1m. An investor would have been better off investing Y2 and Y3 money into something else and cash in on those investments when Y2 and Y3 instalments were due. They would have made more than just £1m in interest off those investments. 8 minutes ago, RAM1966 said: Both of the points above point to a man who simply did not have the funds, yet many on here thought he was the messiah. I even got slated when I suggested the above really did not look right or make any business sense whatsoever. And you rightfully got slated by my for the exact reasons I gave. 8 minutes ago, RAM1966 said: Any credible party that seriously PB status should have been confident enough to put their money behind the bid. Sorry, but for me this is just another sign of how poorly Q handled the whole issue.... Let's not forget well regarded administrators have come out and said they wouldn't have dared touched this case due to the complexities. Sure, Q could have done some things better (a lot better?), but still managed to get us out of admin in around 282 days. Wigan, with much lower debt and many more saleable assets took 272 days (and several PBs), yet didn't come under anywhere near as much ridicule. Portsmouth were in admin for 427 days (2012-2013). Trevor Birch was the administrator for that one. Carnero, angieram, Chester40 and 8 others 4 1 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Igor Igor Whats the Score? Posted July 21, 2022 Share Posted July 21, 2022 Can’t wait for the Netflix documentary on this like Elizabeth Holmes or Anna Sorokin or Fyre Festival. So many people are going to be exposed who are currently trying to figure out contingency plans for their own credibility. We survived……us Rams can all laugh now ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ilsonram12 Posted July 21, 2022 Share Posted July 21, 2022 1 hour ago, SamUltraRam said: Is it possible that Rooney quit as manager because he realised how his close association with this charlatan almost resulted in killing our club ? Money money money is why he quit, look at the contract at DC United he's on... Tamworthram 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hintonsboots Posted July 21, 2022 Share Posted July 21, 2022 It’s my understanding that Quantuma went back to Kirchner and persuaded him to place another bid. This was after he “Withdrew “ his bid for Preston. What was going through their minds, desperation probably. Crewton 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RAM1966 Posted July 21, 2022 Share Posted July 21, 2022 25 minutes ago, Ghost of Clough said: The administrators are legally obliged to accept the best offer for the creditors. The evidence presented to them (the EFL, and other parties) must have shown he had the money. The latest article from Forbes somewhat hints at why the money got held up. As I told you several times in the past, the financial difference between 25% and 35% was only about £1m. An investor would have been better off investing Y2 and Y3 money into something else and cash in on those investments when Y2 and Y3 instalments were due. They would have made more than just £1m in interest off those investments. And you rightfully got slated by my for the exact reasons I gave. Let's not forget well regarded administrators have come out and said they wouldn't have dared touched this case due to the complexities. Sure, Q could have done some things better (a lot better?), but still managed to get us out of admin in around 282 days. Wigan, with much lower debt and many more saleable assets took 272 days (and several PBs), yet didn't come under anywhere near as much ridicule. Portsmouth were in admin for 427 days (2012-2013). Trevor Birch was the administrator for that one. So I should have been slated, at the time as said I had concerns and felt it it would not go through. My concerns turned out to be legitimate ones as KC has been proved to be the tyre kicker I suspected. Sorry but the bid had to be credible and it clearly wasn't. Look at what Kirchner was alledgey buying for a fee north of £28m. 5 players, golden share. What he wasn't getting was a ground valued at approx £50-60m, he wasn't getting the rebue from the hospitality, concourses etc. Therefore his business plan was lacking, that revenue could have been used to run the club. Its madness, have you owned and run a business? I have are Kirchners bid had red flags all over it, admin and EFL have done an awfull job. Here is a propostion for you, Illput a house up for sale value £500k, but you've only got £250k, so Ill sell you a crappy garage at the side that needs repairs, then make you pay ground rent as you will not own the land it sits on. Does that seem a fair deal? Of course not, but, its as rediculous as Kirchner's offer without buying a ground. How come all of the other offers all were dependent on buying the ground? Because a cheap ground helped to offset the for all intensive purposes an insolvent business. Any other type of business would have folded! Everyone seems to have forgotten Andy Appleby who I have on good authority he bid twice... He was definitely not a tyre kicker.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ghost of Clough Posted July 21, 2022 Share Posted July 21, 2022 7 minutes ago, RAM1966 said: So I should have been slated, at the time as said I had concerns and felt it it would not go through. My concerns turned out to be legitimate ones as KC has been proved to be the tyre kicker I suspected. Sorry but the bid had to be credible and it clearly wasn't. Look at what Kirchner was alledgey buying for a fee north of £28m. 5 players, golden share. What he wasn't getting was a ground valued at approx £50-60m, he wasn't getting the rebue from the hospitality, concourses etc. Therefore his business plan was lacking, that revenue could have been used to run the club. Its madness, have you owned and run a business? I have are Kirchners bid had red flags all over it, admin and EFL have done an awfull job. No, you were proven right to have your concerns. Your justification was off though. You say Kirchner's bid wasn't credible because he was buying a club with only 5 players for £28m. Yet Clowes just bought the club for the same amount. You have no idea what arrangement was in place between Kirchner and Clowes regarding the Stadium. It's more than feasible to say Kirchner was going to buy the stadium for £30m once we're back in the PL. You say Kirchner's bid had red flags all over it without actually having the evidence to look at. The administratiors, the EFL, TripleS, and Clowes were all convinced he was legit based on the actual evidence provided to them. Goldman Sachs also invested $60m in Slyncio and wer convinced he was legit. He bought a jet worth $15m... 7 minutes ago, RAM1966 said: Here is a propostion for you, Illput a house up for sale value £500k, but you've only got £250k, so Ill sell you a crappy garage at the side that needs repairs, then make you pay ground rent as you will not own the land it sits on. Does that seem a fair deal? Of course not, but, its as rediculous as Kirchner's offer without buying a ground. How come all of the other offers all were dependent on buying the ground? Because a cheap ground helped to offset the for all intensive purposes an insolvent business. Any other type of business would have folded! Everyone seems to have forgotten Andy Appleby who I have on good authority he bid twice... He was definitely not a tyre kicker.... What a nonsense analogy. There's a very large list of clubs who pay rent for their stadium. A better analogy would be owning a franchise to sell Subway sandwiches. The franchise itself is pretty much worthless without a place to sell food. But, rent somewhere to sell them and suddenly it's a a much better deal. Of course, you could buy a place instead to save on the amount you're paying out on rent, but it's a decent chunk of money to pay upfront. Our previous rent of £1.1m, which would be reasonable for a £23m property. An investor could do what they do... invest the remaining £21.9m in something else. They'd only need a 5% return to effectively use the stadium at zero net cost whilst paying nothing upfront. Andy Appleby who struggled to get the investors to raise the cash in the first place, then still bid lower than Kirchner AND Clowes... Crewton, Chester40, LazloW and 5 others 3 2 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ram-Alf Posted July 21, 2022 Share Posted July 21, 2022 1 hour ago, Ghost of Clough said: Let's not forget well regarded administrators have come out and said they wouldn't have dared touched this case due to the complexities. Sure, Q could have done some things better (a lot better?), but still managed to get us out of admin in around 282 days. Wigan, with much lower debt and many more saleable assets took 272 days (and several PBs), yet didn't come under anywhere near as much ridicule. Portsmouth were in admin for 427 days (2012-2013). Trevor Birch was the administrator for that one. Spot on GoC, There's only one poster who saw through all this...yes you've guessed it...Onechop ?, Not because he had insider knowledge, Financial acumen, But because he like me is/was suspicious...fair play to him ? Too dupe all those he had a better plan than Baldrick, It was so cunning he could convince our outgoing PM that he never told a lie, I feel we have a better future...not necessarily a successful one but a future where fans can hope once more and have an owner that is truly a Life Long Fan ? Ghost of Clough 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ewetube Posted July 21, 2022 Share Posted July 21, 2022 4 hours ago, Turk Thrust said: Eh? No, what do they say? You can't bullship a bullshipper. Or something along those lines. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turk Thrust Posted July 21, 2022 Share Posted July 21, 2022 47 minutes ago, Ewetube said: You can't bullship a bullshipper. Or something along those lines. Oh gotcha. Makes sense now. Didn’t realise you were using “ship” instead of a similar word. Duh! Ram-Alf and Ewetube 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mihangel Posted July 21, 2022 Share Posted July 21, 2022 3 hours ago, Ghost of Clough said: The administrators are legally obliged to accept the best offer for the creditors. The evidence presented to them (the EFL, and other parties) must have shown he had the money. The latest article from Forbes somewhat hints at why the money got held up. As I told you several times in the past, the financial difference between 25% and 35% was only about £1m. An investor would have been better off investing Y2 and Y3 money into something else and cash in on those investments when Y2 and Y3 instalments were due. They would have made more than just £1m in interest off those investments. And you rightfully got slated by my for the exact reasons I gave. Let's not forget well regarded administrators have come out and said they wouldn't have dared touched this case due to the complexities. Sure, Q could have done some things better (a lot better?), but still managed to get us out of admin in around 282 days. Wigan, with much lower debt and many more saleable assets took 272 days (and several PBs), yet didn't come under anywhere near as much ridicule. Portsmouth were in admin for 427 days (2012-2013). Trevor Birch was the administrator for that one. Odd that people struggle so much to understand the 25 v 35% issue, thanks for taking the time to clarify, again! One question regarding the admins, are there any sources for this beyond Maguire, I'd just like to see their reasoning. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gringo Posted July 21, 2022 Share Posted July 21, 2022 3 hours ago, Ilsonram12 said: Money money money is why he quit, look at the contract at DC United he's on... As I have stated in a previous post , WR's contract at DC United is only £16,065/week that is a sixth of the money he was allegedly earning at DCFC, I have looked at the contract as described in both the UK and USA media and can confirm your post is factually totally inaccurate Wolfie20 and RoyMac5 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crewton Posted July 21, 2022 Share Posted July 21, 2022 24 minutes ago, Charlotte Ram said: As I have stated in a previous post , WR's contract at DC United is only £16,065/week that is a sixth of the money he was allegedly earning at DCFC, I have looked at the contract as described in both the UK and USA media and can confirm your post is factually totally inaccurate It's roughly the same as he was earning as our manager - he signed a new manager's contract when he took the job permanently. RadioactiveWaste 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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