The Ukraine War

[1of4]

44 minutes ago, Archied said:

Whataboutism, another trendy word to cover do as I say not as I do 

Whataboutism, a method used by people who are unable to give a plausible reason for their stance on a specific subject. So they point at what someone else as done, could have done, should have done, in an attempt to shift the focus away from the original issue.

The reasons, actions taken and the consequences of previous wars, may or may not have similarities to what is presently happening in Ukraine. But none of it can justify what is happening there now.

Should we be focusing on posting about, as the title of this thread says, the Ukraine War, leaving the wrongs of all the wars and conflicts to a later date?

So to get back on topic. As we watch the suffering of innocent civilians and their struggles to get to safety due to the indiscriminate shelling and bombing by Russia. Millions have managed to cross the borders into safe havens with most entering Poland, the authorities there are doing a great job in welcoming these refugees. Apparently even the Polish scouts are helping out on the border, their motto is be prepared. Something our government could do with following.

Good to see our caring and compassionate Foreign Secretary as announced that to speed up applications, Ukrainians will now be able to go online to apply for an entry visa. Unfortunately she didn't say anything about how soon they'd actually get approval for a visa. Hopefully they'll all have smartphones and somewhere to charge them.

[1of4]

4 hours ago, Alpha said:

Looking at some of the videos. 

We've got Ukrainian soldiers beating and executing a civilian in the street. Are they Ukranian soldiers?

We've got a "Russian tank" swerving to run over a civilian car (with someone inside). The tank actually seems to be Ukranian armored vehicle and the full video shows it to be in combat with another Ukranian armored vehicle. Both firing at each other the whole time.

Then transport truck being driven by a Ukranian soldier being shot at by Ukranian soldiers who obviously think he's a Russian saboteur. 

Both sides accuse each other of using the evacuation corridors to advance. 

Russia are suggesting that Ukraine are framing them. Ukraine are suggesting that its Russian saboteurs. 

@rammieibmentioned why can't Nato intervene on the basis of War Crimes. And I think someone from the UN put forward a plan of US troops going in purely for humanitarian aid. But it seems such a mess and so much information coming out that can't be confirmed. 

I don't see how US or UN troops can be deployed and it not be a declaration of war. The chances of them ending up fighting Russian or "Ukranian" infantry is extremely high in urban combat. 

It's pretty clear that talk of Nuclear weapons is a thinly veiled threat if Nato intervene in that capacity. They responded to Liz Truss by mobilising (or whatever they called it) their nuclear deterrent. Then Lavrov said WW3 must be avoided as it would end up a Nuclear war. These are threats surely?

 The threat of nuclear warfare by Putin is highly unlikely, unless it looks like he is in serious danger of losing the war.

The possible use of chemical weapons is a more serious danger . Putin has claimed that Ukraine with the help of the USA are developing chemical weapons.  Meaning he could justify engaging in a chemical attack on Ukraine. Something that would be devastating to the the people of Ukraine, while not putting his own people in serious danger, and the repercussions would be far less than if he was to use nuclear weapons. 

[Boycie]

Putin may have a terminal illness apparently.  Taking us all with him isn’t a worry he would have.

[Eddie]

6 hours ago, Archied said:

Whataboutism, another trendy word to cover do as I say not as I do 

It's just pointing out that just because someone else did XYZ in the past, that doesn't make it acceptable for somebody else to follow suit.

It's not 'trendy' - but then again, I am not surprised that you would disagree with something I said just for the hell of it.

[Archied]

1 hour ago, Eddie said:

It's just pointing out that just because someone else did XYZ in the past, that doesn't make it acceptable for somebody else to follow suit.

It's not 'trendy' - but then again, I am not surprised that you would disagree with something I said just for the hell of it.

Not disagreeing for the hell of it , I am certainly not justifying putin s actions in Russia , this barbaric disregard for peoples lives and suffering should be a long gone thing of the past , it will not stop until it is unacceptable under any banner but hey what’s the point of me thinking that way ,I’m just a dot in the grand scheme of thing s way the control or influence of us cannon fodder types??‍♂️
Perhaps see it as my view is pointing stuff out that we are just as guilty of is not about justifying what’s going on now but rather a way forward ,,, the situation happening at present I don’t have a clue what’s the best way to stop or limit the bloodshed 

Edited March 10, 2022 by Archied

[Archied]

2 hours ago, 1of4 said:

Whataboutism, a method used by people who are unable to give a plausible reason for their stance on a specific subject. So they point at what someone else as done, could have done, should have done, in an attempt to shift the focus away from the original issue.

The reasons, actions taken and the consequences of previous wars, may or may not have similarities to what is presently happening in Ukraine. But none of it can justify what is happening there now.

Should we be focusing on posting about, as the title of this thread says, the Ukraine War, leaving the wrongs of all the wars and conflicts to a later date?

So to get back on topic. As we watch the suffering of innocent civilians and their struggles to get to safety due to the indiscriminate shelling and bombing by Russia. Millions have managed to cross the borders into safe havens with most entering Poland, the authorities there are doing a great job in welcoming these refugees. Apparently even the Polish scouts are helping out on the border, their motto is be prepared. Something our government could do with following.

Good to see our caring and compassionate Foreign Secretary as announced that to speed up applications, Ukrainians will now be able to go online to apply for an entry visa. Unfortunately she didn't say anything about how soon they'd actually get approval for a visa. Hopefully they'll all have smartphones and somewhere to charge them.

And whataboutism thrown about indiscriminately is a method / tactic used to avoid looking at ourselves and our own opinions, there is no justification for putin sending in troops to invade and kill ??‍♂️

[uttoxram75]

Sadly, it looks like the recent political populism to water down the Human Rights Act will result in many more horrific situations for ordinary people.

Its always ordinary people who suffer, in any war or conflict, its always the ordinary folk who get tortured, killed, made homeless, become refugees, the rich carry on being rich, ordinary folks carry on getting shafted.

We've not moved on much as a civilisation have we really?

I always wondered what sort of people opposed the Human Rights Act. Its fairly obvious now. My grandad knew, he fought against them from 1939 to 1946. 

He thought he'd won. He never dreamt for one minute that we'd just give it away again.

 

[Archied]

4 hours ago, uttoxram75 said:

 

We've not moved on much as a civilisation have we really?

I always wondered what sort of people opposed the Human Rights Act. Its fairly obvious now. My grandad knew, he fought against them from 1939 to 1946. 

He thought he'd won. He never dreamt for one minute that we'd just give it away again.

 

Nope ,we really havnt , we live in a world where people , corporations, countries can be massively rich wile children around the world can die of starvation, lack of clean water and basic medicine and they’re best hope is for ordinary people who struggle themselves to put they’re hands in they’re pockets and give ??‍♂️,

A bit depressing I know but it really is a bad state of affairs and you wonder how it all ends ,probably with a few greedy power hungry nut jobs stupid enough to press the button eventually 

[BaaLocks]

13 hours ago, Boycie said:

Putin may have a terminal illness apparently.  Taking us all with him isn’t a worry he would have.

Yes, I think it was on one of my deleted posts (not complaining, it wasn't helpful) that the rumour is that Putin had bowel cancer in the lockdown. He had to isolate due to low immunity and that is the reason (well one of them) for the long tables and also that he spent a lot of time alone that likely didn't do much for his sanity. Not sure of current status but giving the whole world a dose of radiotherapy would need to get past a good few levels of sign off, even for him, to have it happen just coz he has no long term plans.

[Turk Thrust]

8 hours ago, uttoxram75 said:

 

I always wondered what sort of people opposed the Human Rights Act. Its fairly obvious now. My grandad knew, he fought against them from 1939 to 1946. 

 

 

Crikey, who  was your grandad fighting in 1946? ?

[Stive Pesley]

30 minutes ago, BaaLocks said:

the rumour is that Putin had bowel cancer

I saw this too - it was reported in the usual click-baity places eg

https://www.cornwalllive.com/news/uk-world-news/vladimir-putin-cancer-according-ex-6761894

I particularly liked this bit

Quote

It is believed Putin's “puffy face” is a sign he is having chemotherapy or on steroids. The source also suggests that his solemn expression is because he is in constant pain.

Because before now - we all new Vladimir "Chuckles" Putin was the life and soul of the Kremlin - always there with a cheeky jape - whoopee cushions, fart spray the lot.

[Dimmu]

14 minutes ago, Turk Thrust said:

Crikey, who  was your grandad fighting in 1946? ?

....a Japanese soldier who continued fighting World War II a full 29 years after the Japanese surrendered, because he didn’t know the war was over.

https://www.todayifoundout.com/index.php/2010/02/a-japanese-soldier-who-continued-fighting-wwii-29-years-after-the-japanese-surrendered-because-he-didnt-know/

[BaaLocks]

15 minutes ago, Turk Thrust said:

Crikey, who  was your grandad fighting in 1946? ?

I've been telling my wife for 20 years that the football finishes at 5:15 just so I can grab a pint in the pub afterwards. Same logic.

[BaaLocks]

3 minutes ago, Dimmu said:

....a Japanese soldier who continued fighting World War II a full 29 years after the Japanese surrendered, because he didn’t know the war was over.

https://www.todayifoundout.com/index.php/2010/02/a-japanese-soldier-who-continued-fighting-wwii-29-years-after-the-japanese-surrendered-because-he-didnt-know/

Yeah, I read that, he works for Quantuma now I believe.

[uttoxram75]

27 minutes ago, Turk Thrust said:

Crikey, who  was your grandad fighting in 1946? ?

God knows, he didn't get back home til then!

he was always late home apparently....?

[therealhantsram]

1 hour ago, Stive Pesley said:

I saw this too - it was reported in the usual click-baity places eg

https://www.cornwalllive.com/news/uk-world-news/vladimir-putin-cancer-according-ex-6761894

I particularly liked this bit

Because before now - we all new Vladimir "Chuckles" Putin was the life and soul of the Kremlin - always there with a cheeky jape - whoopee cushions, fart spray the lot.

I suspect this story has been placed by western intelligence sources as part of the ongoing information war. An attempt to unsettle the Russian masses.

Edited March 11, 2022 by therealhantsram

[Tamworthram]

10 hours ago, uttoxram75 said:

Sadly, it looks like the recent political populism to water down the Human Rights Act will result in many more horrific situations for ordinary people.

Its always ordinary people who suffer, in any war or conflict, its always the ordinary folk who get tortured, killed, made homeless, become refugees, the rich carry on being rich, ordinary folks carry on getting shafted.

We've not moved on much as a civilisation have we really?

I always wondered what sort of people opposed the Human Rights Act. Its fairly obvious now. My grandad knew, he fought against them from 1939 to 1946. 

He thought he'd won. He never dreamt for one minute that we'd just give it away again.

 

A very genuine question, do you have the key points of the proposed watering down of the Human Rights Act and how these are relevant to what we are seeing in Ukraine?

I just want to expand my knowledge.

Thanks

[Tamworthram]

31 minutes ago, therealhantsram said:

I suspect this story has been placed by western intelligence sources as part of the ongoing information war. An attempt to unsettle the Russian masses.

In fairness to the BBC, on the radio this morning the interviewer did pose the question “do we need to take everything we’re hearing from both sides with a pinch of salt?” or words to that effect.

[rammieib]

My wife and I have seriously discussed the possibility of offering our spare bedroom to a refugee. (Mum and a Child). I actually believe hundreds of thousands of people in this country will do the same. 

Are there others on here who are considering doing the same?

[uttoxram75]

21 minutes ago, Tamworthram said:

A very genuine question, do you have the key points of the proposed watering down of the Human Rights Act and how these are relevant to what we are seeing in Ukraine?

I just want to expand my knowledge.

Thanks

Good explanation of it here.

https://www.libertyhumanrights.org.uk/issue/explainer-libertys-guide-to-the-governments-plan-to-overhaul-the-human-rights-act-2/