Derby finally accept 21 point deduction.

[PistoldPete]

Efl’s problems are not really comparable with Parliament v Supreme Court.

More like the GMC looking after the interest of Doctors, and supposedly regulating them  at the same time. So Dr shipman gets under the radar.

Efl being a regulator and also acting in the interests of Gibson and all the rival clubs just does not work. Especially when they are also supposed to be acting in the interests of Derby … as a founder member! 
 

in such a hopelessly conflicted position . Efl should be bending over backwards not only  to be independent but also to be seen to be independent .

yet almost every action they do screams they are not independent . Saying they are “shocked” that Derby has appealed against the 12 point deduction is not the words of  an independent body .

 

Efl is just not fit for purpose … I hope their last act is not to kill off the Rams in an act of spite.

[MackworthRamIsGod]

18 minutes ago, PistoldPete said:

Efl’s problems are not really comparable with Parliament v Supreme Court.

More like the GMC looking after the interest of Doctors, and supposedly regulating them  at the same time. So Dr shipman gets under the radar.

Efl being a regulator and also acting in the interests of Gibson and all the rival clubs just does not work. Especially when they are also supposed to be acting in the interests of Derby … as a founder member! 
 

in such a hopelessly conflicted position . Efl should be bending over backwards not only  to be independent but also to be seen to be independent .

yet almost every action they do screams they are not independent . Saying they are “shocked” that Derby has appealed against the 12 point deduction is not the words of  an independent body .

 

Efl is just not fit for purpose … I hope their last act is not to kill off the Rams in an act of spite.

I don't understand why an independent body would be so happy to see some of its members clubs relegated and in turn find itself in financial ruin. No idea why, especially after a global pandemic when people are fearing for jobs and worrying about money, would the EFL be happy to see a club go into Administration and watch as people are made redundant, losing valuable income and as a result potentially losing their home.

No idea why, Trevor Birch could then go on OUR local radio and say, in so many words 'thems the rules'.

For 18 months the world has been turned upside down, everything has changed, peoples lives have changed, yet the EFL went on as though nothing happened, even appealing against Birminghams not guilty plea, mid way through a lockdown.

They are a dangerous 'firm' ran by dangerous people and as much as I do think Derby will survive, it isn't because the EFL have helped in anyway shape or form.

They are after a big scalp, a big club to crash and burn, to use as ammo against the Premier League to try and cut a better deal, Parry set his sights on Wednesday and us.

 

[jono]

What also interests me is how the movers shakers and decision makers in the EFL actually get the positions of authority. How did the rules get made, what votes and input did the members get in making them. It is a regulator,  it it is also an association of its members. 
 

Of course I understand it will look for members who by their actions damage other members but something is awry in its whole demeanour and public utterances.

[Comrade 86]

39 minutes ago, jono said:

What also interests me is how the movers shakers and decision makers in the EFL actually get the positions of authority. How did the rules get made, what votes and input did the members get in making them. It is a regulator,  it it is also an association of its members. 
 

Of course I understand it will look for members who by their actions damage other members but something is awry in its whole demeanour and public utterances.

Sherry slurping suits notable only for accomplishing the not inconsiderable feat of having their noses in the trough and their heads up their arses at the same time. 

[PistoldPete]

1 hour ago, MackworthRamIsGod said:

I don't understand why an independent body would be so happy to see some of its members clubs relegated and in turn find itself in financial ruin. No idea why, especially after a global pandemic when people are fearing for jobs and worrying about money, would the EFL be happy to see a club go into Administration and watch as people are made redundant, losing valuable income and as a result potentially losing their home.

No idea why, Trevor Birch could then go on OUR local radio and say, in so many words 'thems the rules'.

For 18 months the world has been turned upside down, everything has changed, peoples lives have changed, yet the EFL went on as though nothing happened, even appealing against Birminghams not guilty plea, mid way through a lockdown.

They are a dangerous 'firm' ran by dangerous people and as much as I do think Derby will survive, it isn't because the EFL have helped in anyway shape or form.

They are after a big scalp, a big club to crash and burn, to use as ammo against the Premier League to try and cut a better deal, Parry set his sights on Wednesday and us.

 

I think its self justification by EFL. They know after the Parliamntary review they are under threat of losing their powers. 

"Shocked "we are trying to get the 12 points back? Maybe they are shocked we got 14 of them back on the pitch too, that might spoil their day as well.  

 

 

 

[Ram-Alf]

35 minutes ago, jono said:

What also interests me is how the movers shakers and decision makers in the EFL actually get the positions of authority.

They would have been involved in football for sometime, The old adage "it's not what you know but who you know", They will come with some sort knowledge about how the game works, They'll be a good wage, Car, Expence account ie fuel, Clothing, Food while travelling to and from work, Free entry to most football competitions, Hotels and food/drink.

The odd committee meeting to attend ie punishments for rule breaking, Just think about FIFA, EUFA, The Olympic Committee, World Health Organisation, CONCACAF, The ELF on a much less footing are people who think they are important...a bit like Narccissists...all about us and not those we represent. 

[jono]

22 minutes ago, Unlucky Alf said:

They would have been involved in football for sometime, The old adage "it's not what you know but who you know", They will come with some sort knowledge about how the game works, They'll be a good wage, Car, Expence account ie fuel, Clothing, Food while travelling to and from work, Free entry to most football competitions, Hotels and food/drink.

The odd committee meeting to attend ie punishments for rule breaking, Just think about FIFA, EUFA, The Olympic Committee, World Health Organisation, CONCACAF, The ELF on a much less footing are people who think they are important...a bit like Narccissists...all about us and not those we represent. 

It’s interesting isn’t it. Formula 1 always made me chuckle .. urrrrm what is Formula 1 ? 

Well the RAC and the FIA over the years created some rules and several manufacturers all decided to compete there was prize money but it was really auto manufacturers looking for some halo advertising. Where did this organisation arrive that “owned” Formula 1 … They are nothing but negotiators and salesmen … They didn’t invest in the tracks or the cars or the drivers …. OK OK They got “loads a money” from broadcasters and spread some of it amongst the competitors … But the tracks the cars, the competition and the rules all existed long before someone kind of claimed ownership .. Football is the same. There was a line that got bumped in sometime in the 70/80’s then with the advent of subscription TV it was well and truly crossed

[Ram-Alf]

11 minutes ago, jono said:

It’s interesting isn’t it. Formula 1 always made me chuckle .. urrrrm what is Formula 1 ? 

Well the RAC and the FIA over the years created some rules and several manufacturers all decided to compete there was prize money but it was really auto manufacturers looking for some halo advertising. Where did this organisation arrive that “owned” Formula 1 … They are nothing but negotiators and salesmen … They didn’t invest in the tracks or the cars or the drivers …. OK OK They got “loads a money” from broadcasters and spread some of it amongst the competitors … But the tracks the cars, the competition and the rules all existed long before someone kind of claimed ownership .. Football is the same. There was a line that got bumped in sometime in the 70/80’s then with the advent of subscription TV it was well and truly crossed

The Formula One series originated with the European Championship of Grand Prix motor racing (q.v. for pre-1947 history) of the 1920s and 1930s. ... Formula One was a new formula agreed upon during 1946 after World War II, with the first non-championship races taking place that year.

Look at the European Super League, A group of Very rich clubs, Who by the power of Zoom and mobile phones got together to form the ESL...we now know the outcome.

Then we had the FA and the Football League, The FA decided to breakaway from the FL to start the PL, What was left was an organisation that was left with just a few teeth left after having most of them kicked out by the FA, They were left potless, Those that remained were so far behind the PL they had to do something, Unfortunately...what and who with, IMO the EFL are still toothless with very little bite, BUT! have enough power to make them THINK! they are POWERFULL!

[ram59]

I think that the EFL are worrying that if we're successful in our appeal against the 12 points, then a number of other clubs will also go into administration, as a means of clearing their debts.

Maybe the administrators will come to an agreement by which they withdraw the appeal in exchange for no further penalties.

[Leeds Ram]

21 hours ago, DarkFruitsRam7 said:

Study law but running a million miles from it as a career.

If I remember my second year studies rightly, Supreme Court judges are chosen by committee. It's nowhere near as political as the US. 

As for @Bob The Badger's question, @Leeds Ram gave a pretty good summary. I would say that the Supreme Court is still powerful though. They were the ones who told the government they could do one when they tried to bypass Parliament during the Brexit process.

Yeah, you're right i think on the committee but that generally breaks in favour of the government (even after the relatively recent reforms I believe). 

I think it's an interesting question on their power, the SC's decision was highly controversial partly because some saw it as overstepping their constitutional role. It's certainly been argued the reforms have set in motion a train that will lead to greater independence of the judiciary and challenging Parliament in areas that were previously unforseen. 

[Boycie]

We not straying into politics are we?

[RoyMac5]

12 minutes ago, ram59 said:

I think that the EFL are worrying that if we're successful in our appeal against the 12 points, then a number of other clubs will also go into administration, as a means of clearing their debts.

Maybe the administrators will come to an agreement by which they withdraw the appeal in exchange for no further penalties.

Maybe ‘a number of other clubs’ were also hit badly by the loss of income owing to Covid-19 lockdown?!

[jono]

5 minutes ago, ram59 said:

I think that the EFL are worrying that if we're successful in our appeal against the 12 points, then a number of other clubs will also go into administration, as a means of clearing their debts.

Maybe the administrators will come to an agreement by which they withdraw the appeal in exchange for no further penalties.

To be completely Frank, I feel that is what should happen. We did go into admin .. certainly there were force majeur reasons but we were on a sticky wicket. The penalty for Admin is pretty clear.
 

That said .. the rest of the stuff is so tainted; appeals, experts, committees, lobby groups, mixed with financial dodging that is commonplace. We have been fined, embargoed, suspended points deductions and vilified to a degree that amounts considerable punishment. Whatever case they have against us is undoubtedly shaky and definitely open to interpretation. 
 

In any case .. They have a moral obligation to do whatever they do in one season. If they don’t then it’s verging on I don’t know what, but it would stink to high heaven. 

[jono]

Just now, RoyMac5 said:

Maybe ‘a number of other clubs’ were also hit badly by the loss of income owing to Covid-19 lockdown?!

I wonder how many are wobbling at the moment ? 

[alexxxxx]

15 minutes ago, RoyMac5 said:

Maybe ‘a number of other clubs’ were also hit badly by the loss of income owing to Covid-19 lockdown?!

Trouble is for the efl, I don’t think ‘other clubs haven’t gone in to administration’ is relevant to understanding why Derby went in to administration.

i suspect Derby won’t win the appeal, as the administrators might struggle to show that Derby’s finances were otherwise stable, particularly if the hmrc debt predates COVID.

also there is the question about whether COVID actually is a force majeure event. 

[B4ev6is]

Well personal I think efl have it in for Derby and have done for very very long time and I think there scared of gibson but I think roony should go in and take them on. I think he should be allowed to speak home truths I wish I could be in there with him and I would tell them what I think of them and gibson I dont care if he does not like it.

And plus boro been losing money longer than we have but yet nrothing gets done to them.

[Stive Pesley]

8 minutes ago, alexxxxx said:

also there is the question about whether COVID actually is a force majeure event

Really? I've missed any discussion on that point - assumed it was a given

Normally it applies when

1) the event was the cause of the inability to perform normal business;

2) the non-performance of business was due to circumstances beyond their control; and

3) there were no reasonable steps that they could have taken to avoid or mitigate the event or its consequences.

Surely the first pandemic in 100 years that meant we had no ticket revenue for 12 months counts on all 3?

 

 

[PistoldPete]

40 minutes ago, Boycie said:

We not straying into politics are we?

I mentioned the Parliamentary review of football governance. Does that count?

 

 

[PistoldPete]

12 minutes ago, alexxxxx said:

Trouble is for the efl, I don’t think ‘other clubs haven’t gone in to administration’ is relevant to understanding why Derby went in to administration.

i suspect Derby won’t win the appeal, as the administrators might struggle to show that Derby’s finances were otherwise stable, particularly if the hmrc debt predates COVID.

also there is the question about whether COVID actually is a force majeure event. 

There is no question on the second point.. COVID is definitely a force majeure event as it is described in EFL Rules. Also I think Derby will  show that administration would not have happened if not for covid. Whether Derby/ Mel Morris did enough to prevent admin happening is another more difficult issue I think.

[alexxxxx]

11 minutes ago, Stive Pesley said:

Really? I've missed any discussion on that point - assumed it was a given

Normally it applies when

1) the event was the cause of the inability to perform normal business;

2) the non-performance of business was due to circumstances beyond their control; and

3) there were no reasonable steps that they could have taken to avoid or mitigate the event or its consequences.

Surely the first pandemic in 100 years that meant we had no ticket revenue for 12 months counts on all 3?

 

 

I'd argue it is as well however I've gone on what Mr maguire was saying on his pod this week.

Insurance companies have not been paying out on force majeure clauses. 

Interesting question about how much a chairman/shareholder should be expected to fund a club. 

Edited October 16, 2021 by alexxxxx