Two season transfer ban.

[Ghost of Clough]

1 hour ago, Olton Ram said:

This is why supporting Derby is so much more fun than supporting anyone else. Other teams get to celebrate goals, promotions or trophies. We can celebrate one less EFL charge!

YYYYYYEEEEEEESSSSSSSSS!!!!!!

 

This is Derby we're talking about...

[chezzyram]

3 hours ago, cheron85 said:

If you let a bully win he'll just come back and do it again

If you stand up to them you may well get the snot beaten out of you but you'll have showcased to others that their behaviour isn't acceptable 

We're currently getting seven shades of snot beaten out of us but I don't see that as a reason to back down and let the bully have their way

Agree totally with the sentiments but not sure that we're showcasing to others the Efl's unacceptable behaviour, if anything the rest of the league are having a good old chuckle and reaching for the popcorn

[Bianoic]

3 hours ago, 86 Hair Islands said:

Far be it from me to suggest that the EFL are a snivelling bunch of feckless trough sniffers, but is the HMRC charge really something they should be concerning themselves with? I'd have thought any sanctions relating to this particular matter should fall under the jurisdiction of HMRC themselves. Not sure they require any additional support from sherry-slurping, bungle-gibsons like the EFL, whose only claim to fame seems to be making a colossal clusterfuck of the job with which they are tasked. Seems to me that HMRC are quite capable of any required enforcement measures themselves without any such 'aid' ?‍♀️

If you cant pay HMRC then its a pretty fair bet that you are in severe financial straits and therefore are unlikely to meet other liabilities and debts as well. Its pretty well a last resort to not pay these people. The only people who don't pay are those that cant. And everybody knows this. 
So its not really a surprise that the EFL treat this as a massive red flag, I’m afraid.

[B4ev6is]

14 minutes ago, Bianoic said:

If you cant pay HMRC then its a pretty fair bet that you are in severe financial straits and therefore are unlikely to meet other liabilities and debts as well. Its pretty well a last resort to not pay these people. The only people who don't pay are those that cant. And everybody knows this. 
So its not really a surprise that the EFL treat this as a massive red flag, I’m afraid.

Hey guys they just removed about us owe a club money had just been dropped.

[hintonsboots]

9 minutes ago, B4ev6is said:

Hey guys they just removed about us owe a club money had just been dropped.

 

[B4ev6is]

I think whole could get dropped soon meaning no point deduction.

[richinspain]

23 minutes ago, B4ev6is said:

I think whole could get dropped soon meaning no point deduction.

Unfortunately none of the charges will ever be dropped. The only way they will disappear is, as I imagine is the case with the unpaid instalments, when we put our part in order, or when the EFL finally decide to put an end to things by actually giving out sanctions. If we pay off all monies owing and submit all outstanding accounts then there will be nothing left to embargo us for. The only thing left would be if we fail FFP or whatever incarnation.

[Gee SCREAMER !!]

1 hour ago, B4ev6is said:

Hey guys they just removed about us owe a club money had just been dropped.

 

Edited September 8, 2021 by Gee SCREAMER !!

[Gee SCREAMER !!]

1 hour ago, Bianoic said:

If you cant pay HMRC then its a pretty fair bet that you are in severe financial straits and therefore are unlikely to meet other liabilities and debts as well. Its pretty well a last resort to not pay these people. The only people who don't pay are those that cant. And everybody knows this. 
So its not really a surprise that the EFL treat this as a massive red flag, I’m afraid.

I'm not sure it's a case of owing HMRC money as such.  As a business it's making none.  So it's quite likely to be penalties for non submitted accounts at companies house showing no corporation tax is due, which it seems clear the club aren't doing for some EFL related reason.  The HMRC debt might be a grand in associated penalties. If it was PAYE/NIC owed we would likely be up in court already and the magnitude would be common knowledge.

[duncanjwitham]

So we have to assume the missed payments a temporary cash-flow thing.  But given that now is probably the most cash-rich we are over the course of the season (with season ticket sales etc, plus the transfer window now closed), there’s every chance it keeps happening sporadically over the course of the season. So the question then becomes, do we end up with some kind of punishment purely for repeated ‘minor’ infractions. After all, the missed wages were paid fairly promptly, but we still have a suspended deduction if we do it again.

[jono]

1 hour ago, Bianoic said:

If you cant pay HMRC then its a pretty fair bet that you are in severe financial straits and therefore are unlikely to meet other liabilities and debts as well. Its pretty well a last resort to not pay these people. The only people who don't pay are those that cant. And everybody knows this. 
So its not really a surprise that the EFL treat this as a massive red flag, I’m afraid.

But had it occurred to you that as revenues crashed we reached an agreement with HMRC, to delay and stage payments. 
The fact the the HMRC maybe happy with that and we are keeping to whatever schedule we agreed with them, hasn’t really been mentioned. The EFL have this on the charge sheet because it breaks their rules … but I want to ask, have they investigated other clubs current relationships with the HMRC or indeed any agreement we have with HMRC. 

Without any doubt at all we are either making back payments to HMRC according to an agreed schedule OR the HMRC are going to take action against us. The EFL sticking to the letter of their rules in our respect is not the same as being in do do with HMRC

[Carl Sagan]

6 minutes ago, Gee SCREAMER !! said:

I'm not sure it's a case of owing HMRC money as such.  As a business it's making none.  So it's quite likely to be penalties for non submitted accounts at companies house showing no corporation tax is due, which it seems clear the club aren't doing for some EFL related reason.  The HMRC debt might be a grand in associated penalties. If it was PAYE/NIC owed we would likely be up in court already and the magnitude would be common knowledge.

Exactly this. We've all seen over the years that HMRC isn't backwards about chasing clubs for money and are always issuing winding-up orders against clubs. My understanding has always been we don't owe money to them, but the EFL are including it as part of their non-submittal of accounts.

Which maybe connects with the issue that EFL supposedly wanted us to resubmit old accounts to the HMRC which we can't do because the accounts were fine, accepted and are now historic, so we've given the EFL the information on "this is what they would have said if we were doing the accounts differently" but now we seem in limbo with that. Perhaps it's all waiting for the recent accounts to go to HMRC, but maybe the club are saying we can't do that until EFL approves the material we've resubmitted to them, and they're saying, we won't approve this unless you take a 9 point deduction and we're saying no. It never ends...

[Bianoic]

11 minutes ago, Gee SCREAMER !! said:

I'm not sure it's a case of owing HMRC money as such.  As a business it's making none.  So it's quite likely to be penalties for non submitted accounts at companies house showing no corporation tax is due, which it seems clear the club aren't doing for some EFL related reason.  The HMRC debt might be a grand in associated penalties. If it was PAYE/NIC owed we would likely be up in court already and the magnitude would be common knowledge.

Unlikely I’m afraid GS

Even the EFL wouldn't be bothered by a sum as small as that and, anyway, the cause of those potential penalties ( non submission of accounts) is already on the EFL hit list.

We don't know when the club first started withholding Paye, NI or VAT but, even in normal times, moving from non payment to court can be (and can be made to be) a very long process, for all sorts of reasons. And in these times of covid and lockdown, it would be even longer, if at all. HMRC have been told to back off from aggressive debt chasing throughout this period of lockdown. So court action to date would have been very unlikely.

I’m afraid there is every likelihood that its paye, nic and vat not being paid over by the club

 

[Comrade 86]

1 minute ago, Bianoic said:

I’m afraid there is every likelihood that its paye, nic and vat not being paid over by the club

Well let's wait and see, eh? 

[Foreveram]

7 minutes ago, 86 Hair Islands said:

Well let's wait and see, eh? 

48 hours 

[Gee SCREAMER !!]

4 minutes ago, Bianoic said:

Unlikely I’m afraid GS

Even the EFL wouldn't be bothered by a sum as small as that and, anyway, the cause of those potential penalties ( non submission of accounts) is already on the EFL hit list.

We don't know when the club first started withholding Paye, NI or VAT but, even in normal times, moving from non payment to court can be (and can be made to be) a very long process, for all sorts of reasons. And in these times of covid and lockdown, it would be even longer, if at all. HMRC have been told to back off from aggressive debt chasing throughout this period of lockdown. So court action to date would have been very unlikely.

I’m afraid there is every likelihood that its paye, nic and vat not being paid over by the club

 

it's all conjecture but penalties accruing at HMRC for non submission would still constitute money owed to HMRC and be listed as HMRC debt not paid.   The less aggressive chasing of debt would more likely relate to S/E sole traders and their own liability.  NIC and VAT is always aggressively chased as the repercussions to state pension can be high and if business stops trading it's a real issue. 

See what comes out in the wash. 

[Comrade 86]

1 minute ago, Foreveram said:

48 hours 

[gfs1ram]

8 minutes ago, Bianoic said:

Unlikely I’m afraid GS

Even the EFL wouldn't be bothered by a sum as small as that and, anyway, the cause of those potential penalties ( non submission of accounts) is already on the EFL hit list.

We don't know when the club first started withholding Paye, NI or VAT but, even in normal times, moving from non payment to court can be (and can be made to be) a very long process, for all sorts of reasons. And in these times of covid and lockdown, it would be even longer, if at all. HMRC have been told to back off from aggressive debt chasing throughout this period of lockdown. So court action to date would have been very unlikely.

I’m afraid there is every likelihood that its paye, nic and vat not being paid over by the club

 

Spot on Bianoic 

For example Companies could defer VAT payments from last year until April 2021. Which I think you will find a lot of Clubs did.

It looks as though we are the only Club however not to have paid it up to date in April? I believe interest of 5% is charged by HMRC ( could be wrong) if so that could be a lot cheaper than borrowing from our other sources! 

It doesn't help our embargo though!!

[Bianoic]

11 minutes ago, jono said:

But had it occurred to you that as revenues crashed we reached an agreement with HMRC, to delay and stage payments. 
The fact the the HMRC maybe happy with that and we are keeping to whatever schedule we agreed with them, hasn’t really been mentioned. The EFL have this on the charge sheet because it breaks their rules … but I want to ask, have they investigated other clubs current relationships with the HMRC or indeed any agreement we have with HMRC. 

Without any doubt at all we are either making back payments to HMRC according to an agreed schedule OR the HMRC are going to take action against us. The EFL sticking to the letter of their rules in our respect is not the same as being in do do with HMRC

It had indeed

I would be very surprised if the club hadn't entered into such an arrangement. Pretty well all businesses ( let alone football clubs)  will have done so during the lockdown and have been encouraged to do so. I suspect most clubs in the EFL have taken advantage of this option.

Your question about the EFLs approach to these other clubs, if it is such an issue to them, is correct. However, the  reason we have heard nothing from the EFL about them  is probably pretty simple :

• It would not be reasonable for the EFL to include such a legitimate arrangement as being worthy of being on its ‘charge sheet’  and so this is, in my view, a red herring - entering into a payment plan is not an issue to them at all
• What would cause an issue, however,  would be  if we were failing to stick to a previously agreed payment plan, especially if that were to happen repeatedly

Of course, all of this is conjecture. One poster made a tongue in cheek remark in the last 24 hours that the timing of the new season ticket sales may not have been entirely coincidental in the latest removal of the unpaid transfer fees from the ‘charge sheet’. Maybe it was the plan all along by Mel and Stephen that they could use the same source of cash to deal with the HMRC situation ?

[Bianoic]

8 minutes ago, Gee SCREAMER !! said:

The less aggressive chasing of debt would more likely relate to S/E sole traders and their own liability.  NIC and VAT is always aggressively chased as the repercussions to state pension can be high and if business stops trading it's a real issue. 

Sorry to drone on about this and bore people to death but both of your statements above are factually completely incorrect, from my own personal knowledge of working today with all sorts of businesses and organisations, from the very large to very small.

As you say, though, GE, interesting to try to read between the lines but lets hope the actual facts come out soon.