Debt versus mel spend

[kevinhectoring]

3 hours ago, Archied said:

So the bit I’m trying to figure is ,,,, is most of this debt due to covid problems or have we been getting deep before the covid stuff with us fans unaware that the club was being dangerously hocked up to its eyeballs whilst we thought mel Morris was financing us ?

@Ghost of Cloughhas written posts in various threads over the last few months which go a long way to answering this question. 

[G STAR RAM]

16 hours ago, Archied said:

So the bit I’m trying to figure is ,,,, is most of this debt due to covid problems or have we been getting deep before the covid stuff with us fans unaware that the club was being dangerously hocked up to its eyeballs whilst we thought mel Morris was financing us ?

I'd say a bit of both.

Obviously we have been making losses every year but MM has been covering them with cash injections.

Probably worth noting that we were buying players that had to be paid for over 3 or 4 years too.

 

[Oldben]

Stephen Pearce, chief executive, says Derby county lost 20 million in revenue due to pandemic.

2017 Derby had an income of 29 million.

I think there will be buyers willing to spend 60 million buying Derby assuming the income return for the year was between 20 and 30 million.

When Derby were last in the Premier league they made over 40 million a year.

That should interest buyers.

The debt as with any debt, is something on a repayment plan, its a manageable debt.

 

 

[TheTinMan]

2 hours ago, Oldben said:

Stephen Pearce, chief executive, says Derby county lost 20 million in revenue due to pandemic.

2017 Derby had an income of 29 million.

I think there will be buyers willing to spend 60 million buying Derby assuming the income return for the year was between 20 and 30 million.

When Derby were last in the Premier league they made over 40 million a year.

That should interest buyers.

The debt as with any debt, is something on a repayment plan, its a manageable debt.

 

 

I'm interested to know where they think they have 'lost' £20M in revenue, revenue through gate receipts and hospitality for the two most recent accounting periods we have information on were around 13M. Merchandising and programme sales as an income stream are actually relatively negligible and wouldn't have dried up entirely because of COVID. Was there a reduction in TV revenue for the entire league related to COVID (some form of compensation perhaps for a lack of crowds affecting the product?) that I've missed somewhere? 

[Tyler Durden]

2 hours ago, Oldben said:

Stephen Pearce, chief executive, says Derby county lost 20 million in revenue due to pandemic.

2017 Derby had an income of 29 million.

I think there will be buyers willing to spend 60 million buying Derby assuming the income return for the year was between 20 and 30 million.

When Derby were last in the Premier league they made over 40 million a year.

That should interest buyers.

The debt as with any debt, is something on a repayment plan, its a manageable debt.

 

 

Obviously not as events have proven. There are a lot of more fundamental issues that are putting off potential buyers.

[Brammie Steve]

On 21/05/2021 at 10:07, jimtastic56 said:

We probably won’t find everything out until Mel leaves and writes a book. ( with lots of pictures of himself in). I suspect there are a lot of football people out there who have taken him for a ride and filled there boots on the back of DCFC

Rightly or Rooney, I have a feeling that Mel will be much higher in the popularity stakes than many others suh as:-

Sam Longson

Robert Maxwell

Lionel Pickering

Etc

Especially Etc because Mr Morris has always struck me as a true fan as against a business entrepreneur hoping to make a quick profit! 

(Or any kind of profit come to think of it!)

[Archied]

21 minutes ago, Brammie Steve said:

Rightly or Rooney, I have a feeling that Mel will be much higher in the popularity stakes than many others suh as:-

Sam Longson

Robert Maxwell

Lionel Pickering

Etc

Especially Etc because Mr Morris has always struck me as a true fan as against a business entrepreneur hoping to make a quick profit! 

(Or any kind of profit come to think of it!)

He has a way to go to be above Pickering for me??‍♂️, longston was the most successful owner in our history so hard to beat 

[Reggie Greenwood]

Just now, Archied said:

He has a way to go to be above Pickering for me??‍♂️, longston was the most successful owner in our history so hard to beat 

And the one who let the siren voices get to his head and let Brian go. Both at fault to an extent lots of pride and ego’s in play and others stirring the pot. 
Could also be said that DCFC spent beyond their means under Sam and George Hardy. 
Football is never simple 

[jono]

Several things spring to mind before passing judgment. Such as :

1) what was the debt attached to the club via mortgages or other normal commercial things when Mel bought it.

2) what is that comparative figure now.

3) what is the state of the physical fabric of the club - training ground, stadium etc before and after

4) what damage has COVID done to the clubs finances that would have been done regardless of who was in charge. And how does that reflect impact questions 1 and 2. I.e we are taking before and after Mel but we should also be talking about pre and post Covid. 

5) when the Americans were in full ownership were they presiding over a possibly sustainable club but without ambition.

Something we would doubtless be moaning about if Mel hadn’t become involved. 

6)I would contend that Mel has done his level best when his gamble didn’t come off. He didn’t cut and run, he tried to make it work but fell foul of warped financial structure that governs the market that is the Championship and a global pandemic, not to mention ill health. 

7) what do we know about the finances of other large none parachute clubs in this league and how do they compare with DCFC

[jono]

3 hours ago, Oldben said:

Stephen Pearce, chief executive, says Derby county lost 20 million in revenue due to pandemic.

2017 Derby had an income of 29 million.

I think there will be buyers willing to spend 60 million buying Derby assuming the income return for the year was between 20 and 30 million.

When Derby were last in the Premier league they made over 40 million a year.

That should interest buyers.

The debt as with any debt, is something on a repayment plan, its a manageable debt.

 

 

False premise.. Income is not profit . Income is money coming in. You make no mention of money going out. When we had an income of 29M what was the wage bill !

[Spanish]

2 hours ago, jono said:

Several things spring to mind before passing judgment. Such as :

1) what was the debt attached to the club via mortgages or other normal commercial things when Mel bought it.

2) what is that comparative figure now.

3) what is the state of the physical fabric of the club - training ground, stadium etc before and after

4) what damage has COVID done to the clubs finances that would have been done regardless of who was in charge. And how does that reflect impact questions 1 and 2. I.e we are taking before and after Mel but we should also be talking about pre and post Covid. 

5) when the Americans were in full ownership were they presiding over a possibly sustainable club but without ambition.

Something we would doubtless be moaning about if Mel hadn’t become involved. 

6)I would contend that Mel has done his level best when his gamble didn’t come off. He didn’t cut and run, he tried to make it work but fell foul of warped financial structure that governs the market that is the Championship and a global pandemic, not to mention ill health. 

7) what do we know about the finances of other large none parachute clubs in this league and how do they compare with DCFC

1 none of know because our corporate governance has caused the EFL to lay charges against us  We are under embargo and still don't know what league we will be in next season

2 see above

3 now we don't own a ground and I don't think we have ever owned the training ground

4 every club is facing this problem and we appear to be feeling it worse than others

5 ambition without control is just a gamble.  I am not happy he is gambling on the future of our club unless the unconditionally agrees to financially support it.  What is clear is that Mel was all blue sky thinking and never asked the question 'what if'.  Really hope he has another rabbit to pull out the bag

6 well so far he does not appear to have cut and run.  We don't know how the club costs are being financed.   The scant club comms are styled 'from the top'. 

7 well they are mostly issued on time so go and look.  Brums looked ok, Reading was awful but tbf neither were reporting on a full year   of covid problems.  Every club is faced with this but we are currently in a special category of our own

Edited May 22, 2021 by Spanish

[GenBr]

10 hours ago, Oldben said:

Stephen Pearce, chief executive, says Derby county lost 20 million in revenue due to pandemic.

2017 Derby had an income of 29 million.

I think there will be buyers willing to spend 60 million buying Derby assuming the income return for the year was between 20 and 30 million.

When Derby were last in the Premier league they made over 40 million a year.

That should interest buyers.

The debt as with any debt, is something on a repayment plan, its a manageable debt.

 

 

Derby have previously set records for non parachute payment team revenue in a season, but they still lost millions in those seasons. You buy the club for £60mill and you will never ever see that money again unless you manage to fill the one and only promotion spot reserved for non parachute teams. 

And 40 million is small fry compared to what they'd get in the Prem now - its more than double that just on TV money. There are however a lot of other problems with the club at present and anyone coming in is going to have to risk losing a hell of a lot of money (as Mel did) with no guarantee of success. 

[G STAR RAM]

10 hours ago, GenBr said:

Derby have previously set records for non parachute payment team revenue in a season, but they still lost millions in those seasons. You buy the club for £60mill and you will never ever see that money again unless you manage to fill the one and only promotion spot reserved for non parachute teams. 

And 40 million is small fry compared to what they'd get in the Prem now - its more than double that just on TV money. There are however a lot of other problems with the club at present and anyone coming in is going to have to risk losing a hell of a lot of money (as Mel did) with no guarantee of success. 

I dont agree with this. 

If you buy an asset for £60m then unless that asset gets worse in time it is not going to lose its value. In this scenario the value of the asset is the ground, the players and the fanbase.

I don't see any losing value from where they are at now.

Likewise if you money is invested in assets it is with the intention of them appreciating in value.

I actually dont think our losses are that high now, other than due to Covid.

Barnsley have proved this season that you dont necessarily need a high wage budget to be competitive, the difference between us and them is that we probably have greater potential do kick on to the next level as a club if we ever do get promoted.

[GenBr]

33 minutes ago, G STAR RAM said:

I dont agree with this. 

If you buy an asset for £60m then unless that asset gets worse in time it is not going to lose its value. In this scenario the value of the asset is the ground, the players and the fanbase.

I don't see any losing value from where they are at now.

Likewise if you money is invested in assets it is with the intention of them appreciating in value.

I actually dont think our losses are that high now, other than due to Covid.

Barnsley have proved this season that you dont necessarily need a high wage budget to be competitive, the difference between us and them is that we probably have greater potential do kick on to the next level as a club if we ever do get promoted.

I didn't say the assets would lose any value. I don't think the club is worth £60 mill in its current state, but whoever buys the club is going to be losing money. Maybe they get promoted and make it back, but I sincerely doubt we'll be getting in the Prem regardless of who the owner is. Maybe we get lucky and sell an academy player for a lot of money, but we've failed to do that so far. The playing squad needs significant investment if we are to avoid relegation. Mel is desperate to sell and he can't find a buyer - just because somebody bought it for £60mill doesn't mean they will get that back when they sell it.

Barnsley still lose money most years and they are up and down between the Championship and League 1 most of the time. This season is an anomaly and I expect them to go back to normal when Covid is over. Money is the main driving force of success even in the Championship - spending more generally improves your league position.

 

[G STAR RAM]

56 minutes ago, GenBr said:

I didn't say the assets would lose any value. I don't think the club is worth £60 mill in its current state, but whoever buys the club is going to be losing money. Maybe they get promoted and make it back, but I sincerely doubt we'll be getting in the Prem regardless of who the owner is. Maybe we get lucky and sell an academy player for a lot of money, but we've failed to do that so far. The playing squad needs significant investment if we are to avoid relegation. Mel is desperate to sell and he can't find a buyer - just because somebody bought it for £60mill doesn't mean they will get that back when they sell it.

Barnsley still lose money most years and they are up and down between the Championship and League 1 most of the time. This season is an anomaly and I expect them to go back to normal when Covid is over. Money is the main driving force of success even in the Championship - spending more generally improves your league position.

What do you think the club is worth?

In recent years we have sold Hendrick, Hughes, Bogle and Lowe, so not sure why you dont believe the academy is capable of producing players that we can sell for a lot of money. 

I believe that Buchanan, Knight and Sibley will all go for decent money.

Agree that league positions generallt reflect expenditure these days.

[jono]

On 22/05/2021 at 17:16, Spanish said:

1 none of know because our corporate governance has caused the EFL to lay charges against us  We are under embargo and still don't know what league we will be in next season

2 see above

3 now we don't own a ground and I don't think we have ever owned the training ground

4 every club is facing this problem and we appear to be feeling it worse than others

5 ambition without control is just a gamble.  I am not happy he is gambling on the future of our club unless the unconditionally agrees to financially support it.  What is clear is that Mel was all blue sky thinking and never asked the question 'what if'.  Really hope he has another rabbit to pull out the bag

6 well so far he does not appear to have cut and run.  We don't know how the club costs are being financed.   The scant club comms are styled 'from the top'. 

7 well they are mostly issued on time so go and look.  Brums looked ok, Reading was awful but tbf neither were reporting on a full year   of covid problems.  Every club is faced with this but we are currently in a special category of our own

Your number 1 doesn’t address the question.

I think we are only a special case because the EFL has has been focussed on our operations in a microscopic way, in part due to past spats and, in a way that from the outside, seems unusual in the extreme. It’s minutiae - We no more own the stadium now than we did previously. If PP isn’t a sports stadium then who’s going to use it and what’s it worth then ? 

if Mel is at fault it is for 2 reasons only

1) he paid way too much for the club in the first place - a loss making business in a market that punishes investment 

2) he trusted the wrong people to control player purchasing and their contracts, in wages, duration and a raft of other factors

[i-Ram]

1 hour ago, jono said:

Your number 1 doesn’t address the question.

I think we are only a special case because the EFL has has been focussed on our operations in a microscopic way, in part due to past spats and, in a way that from the outside, seems unusual in the extreme. It’s minutiae - We no more own the stadium now than we did previously. If PP isn’t a sports stadium then who’s going to use it and what’s it worth then ? 

if Mel is at fault it is for 2 reasons only

1) he paid way too much for the club in the first place - a loss making business in a market that punishes investment 

2) he trusted the wrong people to control player purchasing and their contracts, in wages, duration and a raft of other factors

If he hadn’t contracted his totally inexperienced son-in-law as part of the recruitment team 2) might have been less of a factor.

[Rev]

40 minutes ago, i-Ram said:

If he hadn’t contracted his totally inexperienced son-in-law as part of the recruitment team 2) might have been less of a factor.

That's a bit harsh. 

His son-in-law started off volunteering for the short lived Own the Region project a few years ago, so had loads of experience, and is massively respected in his own rights, not just because of who his father in law is.

Apparently.

[europia]

On 21/05/2021 at 19:22, Archied said:

So the bit I’m trying to figure is ,,,, is most of this debt due to covid problems or have we been getting deep before the covid stuff with us fans unaware that the club was being dangerously hocked up to its eyeballs whilst we thought mel Morris was financing us ?

All the clubs in the championship have lost out financially to the Covid_19 situation. Are they all in the same financial mess as DCFC? Genuine question. 

[G STAR RAM]

10 hours ago, i-Ram said:

If he hadn’t contracted his totally inexperienced son-in-law as part of the recruitment team 2) might have been less of a factor.

Does MM even have a daughter?

Anyway, that's irrelevant.

What is the employment background of the family member and what role did he play within the recruitment team?