Derby County Administration (with the slight possibility of Liquidation still there)

[atherstoneram]

26 minutes ago, Crewton said:

I'm going to be completely honest now and say that I'd rather DCFC survived than the taxpayer/Government get every penny they're owed. Let them chase the people responsible for the balance - they're good at that, particularly if those people don't have the resources to fight them, or manage to scoot off to another jurisdiction that doesn't have extradition agreements in place with the UK, which happens regularly. 

(That last bit might be tongue in cheek) 

If our owner had paid the taxes due then the government wouldn't be chasing anyone for any money,why as a taxpayer should the club be let off paying some of what they owe,I'd rather the government go for every penny owed,it's not their fault we are in this situation.

[angieram]

1 hour ago, atherstoneram said:

As a tax payer i would like to see the club pay what they owe.

Even if that puts us out of business?

[GboroRam]

2 minutes ago, Curtains said:

Is this the political thread !

Don't you think it's a relevant point? HMRC collect tax on behalf of us all. Our club hasn't paid its share. Who gets screwed - the taxpayer or DCFC? I think most of us agree it's Mel's responsibility but he's off the hook now, he's headed off into the sunset. In Mel's absence who should lose out?

[atherstoneram]

Just now, angieram said:

Even if that puts us out of business?

That wouldn't be HMRC's fault would it,it would have been the former owner that did that

[angieram]

1 minute ago, atherstoneram said:

That wouldn't be HMRC's fault would it,it would have been the former owner that did that

You didn't answer the question. You said "I would like to see the club pay what they owe". I was asking you if you wanted HMRC paying in full, even if it puts us out of business. 

[Curtains]

1 minute ago, GboroRam said:

Don't you think it's a relevant point? HMRC collect tax on behalf of us all. Our club hasn't paid its share. Who gets screwed - the taxpayer or DCFC? I think most of us agree it's Mel's responsibility but he's off the hook now, he's headed off into the sunset. In Mel's absence who should lose out?

All I know is Mel /Club should have paid the Tax Bill.

Im conflicted by this as I want DCFC to survive.  
 

I-hope HMRC don’t bill DCFC as I think MM needs to have som responsibility for it. 
What a mess.  
Have the club paid its share !
 

 

[Ram-Alf]

10 minutes ago, atherstoneram said:

That wouldn't be HMRC's fault would it,it would have been the former owner that did that

True, Just like it wouldn't be the Executioners fault that had to press the Lethal Injection button to kill the killer.

Edited October 6, 2021 by Unlucky Alf

[atherstoneram]

1 minute ago, angieram said:

You didn't answer the question. You said "I would like to see the club pay what they owe". I was asking you if you wanted HMRC paying in full, even if it puts us out of business. 

Of course i don't want to see the club go out of business but if the HMRC, .who have a legal obligation to the taxpayer, chase all the debt then there is nothing anyone can do about it.

 I presume MM employed an accountant who would have advised him what debts were due for payment.

[Tamworthram]

1 hour ago, Crewton said:

That sounds right. I guess the determinant will be what assets are defined as fixed in the debenture agreement. Players are an interesting one - you'd assume "floating" but what does the debenture say? 

I would be surprised if they're not classed as floating otherwise, according to my understanding of such things, Rooney would have to obtain the permission of the lenders before selling a player regardless of whether we were in administration or not. 

[Oldben]

Bbc: Derby County owe £15m to MSD Holdings, it has been confirmed by the US investment group.

That's a relief, I thought it was 30 million.

With Arsenal postponing the bielik debt, Is the biggest debt the hmrc one?

If Derby actually owned the ground and training academy plus if they don't get a further 9 points deducted by the efl, then I see light at the end of the tunnel.

I'd the club can bought for a significantly reduced amount, then I'm guessing buyers are interested.

 

[ilkleyram]

HMRC raise about £793 billion a year in tax (and the Treasury have been spending significantly more over the last year or two)

Compared to that, £26m, if indeed that is what we owe, is something like 0.0033%.  In other words it’s in the very minor rounding, a mere slip of a treasurer's pen.

Go on Rishi. You know you want to…………

[Curtains]

16 minutes ago, Oldben said:

Bbc: Derby County owe £15m to MSD Holdings, it has been confirmed by the US investment group.

That's a relief, I thought it was 30 million.

With Arsenal postponing the bielik debt, Is the biggest debt the hmrc one?

If Derby actually owned the ground and training academy plus if they don't get a further 9 points deducted by the efl, then I see light at the end of the tunnel.

I'd the club can bought for a significantly reduced amount, then I'm guessing buyers are interested.

 

Black & White Together
@dcfcbwt
 

More on The club’s debt to MSD:

MSD, as well as the security of Pride Park Stadium & Moor Farm, have a debenture which captures all assets ahead of unsecured creditors, includes book debt, stocks, players, share capital & goodwill. 

 

Black & White Together
@dcfcbwt
·
 

MSD Holdings filed 31/12/20 accounts. Confirms that one borrower with £15m debt at 31/12/20 went into administration, and since 31/12/20 top up loan £4m advanced. 

MSD debt appears to be £19m + interest estimated at 9% payable quarterly. They have security

/////////

Is that Approximately 1.9 Million more times 10 !
or It could just mean 1.9 million interest in the year !

Edited October 6, 2021 by Curtains
Removed time of 42 minutes ago

[PistoldPete]

58 minutes ago, atherstoneram said:

If our owner had paid the taxes due then the government wouldn't be chasing anyone for any money,why as a taxpayer should the club be let off paying some of what they owe,I'd rather the government go for every penny owed,it's not their fault we are in this situation.

If you were In Charge then such bullheadedness would lead to HMRC getting nothing and Derby going bust which as a rams fan and as a taxpayer I would be very angry about indeed. 

[BathRam72]

31 minutes ago, Curtains said:

All I know is Mel /Club should have paid the Tax Bill.

Im conflicted by this as I want DCFC to survive.  
 

I-hope HMRC don’t bill DCFC as I think MM needs to have som responsibility for it. 
What a mess.  
Have the club paid its share !
 

 

If MM had to pass the fit to own a club test by the EFL. That would suggest he had the funds to keep the club afloat or the EFL would not have sanctioned his take over.

Ergo, unless he is now destitute he should be held responsible for the debts accrued before any sale/administration takes place.

As he reputedly still has around half a billion then he should step up and pay his dues.

[RoyMac5]

11 minutes ago, Curtains said:

Black & White Together
@dcfcbwt
·
42m

More on The club’s debt to MSD:

MSD, as well as the security of Pride Park Stadium & Moor Farm, have a debenture which captures all assets ahead of unsecured creditors, includes book debt, stocks, players, share capital & goodwill. 

 

Black & White Together
@dcfcbwt
·
 

MSD Holdings filed 31/12/20 accounts. Confirms that one borrower with £15m debt at 31/12/20 went into administration, and since 31/12/20 top up loan £4m advanced. 

MSD debt appears to be £19m + interest estimated at 9% payable quarterly. They have security

 

Yes, I'd already posted that.

It's not like we're the first business to get their finances 'wrong'. I'm sure DCFC had some sort of payment plan in place to HMRC otherwise we'd have been seeing more winding up orders, like the one that appeared last January.

Edited October 6, 2021 by RoyMac5

[May Contain Nuts]

11 minutes ago, ilkleyram said:

HMRC raise about £793 billion a year in tax (and the Treasury have been spending significantly more over the last year or two)

Compared to that, £26m, if indeed that is what we owe, is something like 0.0033%.  In other words it’s in the very minor rounding, a mere slip of a treasurer's pen.

Go on Rishi. You know you want to…………

West Ham are having some seats moved closer to the pitch and getting their stewarding costs for 4 years paid for at a cost of around £35m, they're aren't paying for any of it themselves though, that's down to the taxpayer.

How about a straight swap? Force West Ham to pay for their own damn running costs, boom, £35m in the HMRC coffers, write off our £25m debt, £10m profit. Great deal.

[PistoldPete]

42 minutes ago, GboroRam said:

Don't you think it's a relevant point? HMRC collect tax on behalf of us all. Our club hasn't paid its share. Who gets screwed - the taxpayer or DCFC? I think most of us agree it's Mel's responsibility but he's off the hook now, he's headed off into the sunset. In Mel's absence who should lose out?

It’s a moral debate but an unnecessary one because both Dcfc and Hmrc has a vested interest in Derby remaining a going concern. To maximise its tax take to the exchequer Hmrc will need to vote for a compromise in order to allow a new owner to take over.

[atherstoneram]

3 minutes ago, RoyMac5 said:

Yes, I'd already posted that.

It's not like we're the first business to get their finances 'wrong'. I'm sure DCFC had some sort of payment plan in place to HMRC otherwise we'd have been seeing more winding up orders, like the one that appeared last January.

Winding up orders were suspended until 30th September so even if we had a plan in place and not sticking to it a winding up order couldn't have been issued.

[RoyMac5]

2 minutes ago, atherstoneram said:

Winding up orders were suspended until 30th September so even if we had a plan in place and not sticking to it a winding up order couldn't have been issued.

So it won't just be us they're chasing then.

[atherstoneram]

1 minute ago, RoyMac5 said:

So it won't just be us they're chasing then.

Other clubs may have been paying their taxes as they fell due, if not and they haven't paid their taxes then yes i can see them chasing other clubs. Just because winding up orders were suspended doesn't absolve any business from not paying taxes on time.