Derby County Administration (with the slight possibility of Liquidation still there)

[GboroRam]

27 minutes ago, atherstoneram said:

But that's just it, the HMRC don't need to be cooperative.

Cooperative? Surely we don't still owe them anything? ?

[PistoldPete]

36 minutes ago, Curtains said:

I’m afraid you could be right 

 

27 minutes ago, atherstoneram said:

But that's just it, the HMRC don't need to be cooperative.

If Derby are liquidated , HMRC gets nothing. So I think they do need to cooperate with any attempts to prevent that happening and HMRc getting something out of the current debt and plenty of tax going forward.

[Ghost of Clough]

31 minutes ago, MackworthRamIsGod said:

Anyone with a shread of hope, who knows a thing or two about these types of situations, could you please tell us how you see this situation coming to and end?

15 million owed to MSD, 26, 28 (insert here) millions to HMRC, 8 million to Arsenal, 5 to Cocu etc etc.

How do we as a club wriggle out of this?

Is there a takeover done and dusted and all this is dotting I's and crossing T's before it is announced, or are we really in shtuck.

Well we've already come to an agreement with Arsenal to delay all payments until next season. A big chuck of that rumoured £8m outstanding is from potential add-ons. You'll find most Championship clubs still owe similar total amounts to other clubs for transfers as we do. Nothing unusual here.
I'm sure Cocu would be more than willing to come to some agreement regarding his compensation, if he hasn't already done so.
MSD treated as a mortgage, so £xm paid off each year.
We'll come to some agreement with HMRC. Either a % of the total amount in one lump lump, or all of it paid off in installments.
There will also be small amounts owed to local businesses who I hope get everything they're due and as soon as possible.

[Crewton]

1 hour ago, atherstoneram said:

It only puts them in the driving seat if an agreement can be reached with HMRC. before the rule change they were left to fight over the dregs now they are in the position to say settle up or else. Going into administration to get rid of debts is not so easy to get out of now as it was. 

Do i think they would put the club into liquidation if they don't receive what they ask for i think they would. This is a test case and will want to show they mean to act tough in negotiations.

They're in the driving seat regarding rights over the club's assets. If the club can't be saved and are liquidated, their debenture puts them ahead of everyone, including HMRC, as I believe it's classed as a "fixed charge", rather than a floating charge, which makes them primary rather than secondary preferential creditors (which is what most of the HMRC debt is). If anyone knows definitively that's not the case, then I stand to be corrected. I can't imagine that MSD would have lent substantial sums without making sure no-one could get ahead of them in the queue, because that's how entities like them work.

[MackworthRamIsGod]

11 minutes ago, Ghost of Clough said:

Well we've already come to an agreement with Arsenal to delay all payments until next season. A big chuck of that rumoured £8m outstanding is from potential add-ons. You'll find most Championship clubs still owe similar total amounts to other clubs for transfers as we do. Nothing unusual here.
I'm sure Cocu would be more than willing to come to some agreement regarding his compensation, if he hasn't already done so.
MSD treated as a mortgage, so £xm paid off each year.
We'll come to some agreement with HMRC. Either a % of the total amount in one lump lump, or all of it paid off in installments.
There will also be small amounts owed to local businesses who I hope get everything they're due and as soon as possible.

Yes I was hoping the HMRC could be sorted via installments arranged with the new buyers.

 

[atherstoneram]

38 minutes ago, Curtains said:

I totally agree that’s why with the new HMRC rules we are in a mess if they want all the money. 

The only saving grace is if we go into liquidation the HMRC get 100 percent of nothing .

The meeting between administrators and HMRC will be difficult as outcome could have effect on the local economy if we are in liquidation and HMRC get nothing 
 

 

The government haven't been bothered about the local economy with shops,pubs,nightclubs etc. closing down so i don't think why they should look on the club any differently,we have already had to make 20 people redundant.

I am not being negative but realistically you have to look at the whole picture as to how others see it and not just fans of the club.

[Ram-Alf]

54 minutes ago, MackworthRamIsGod said:

Anyone with a shread of hope, who knows a thing or two about these types of situations, could you please tell us how you see this situation coming to and end?

15 million owed to MSD, 26, 28 (insert here) millions to HMRC, 8 million to Arsenal, 5 to Cocu etc etc.

How do we as a club wriggle out of this?

Is there a takeover done and dusted and all this is dotting I's and crossing T's before it is announced, or are we really in shtuck.

My Daughter is an Offshore Senior VAT Analyst, She investigates those who have serious wealth but fail to pay their Tax liabilities, I spoke to her about this a few weeks ago, This was her reply...not Verbatum.

DCFC would have had an HMRC adviser working with them before Administration, Since Administration there will be a team with the Administraters trying to come to an amicable conclusion, Liquidation is in the background simply as a threat/bullying tactic, She said and I quote..."HMRC would be Fu**ing stupid to seek Liquidation", There will be 100s of outlying jobs that depend on DCFCs future carrying on, Unfortunately there's businesses that will not be paid and if DCFC pull through this DCFC will want to approach AGAIN those said businesses, So it will be on a CASH only basis...at a guess.

So in essense HMRC could score an own goal if they seek Liquidation, Loss of Tax revenue from those indirectly/directly involved, 10s of 1000s of locals who would be up in arms with HMRC.

Now unfortunately DCFC are dealing with Civil Servents that will not or fail to see the bigger picture, They are there as Government employees and the Government are there equelly to represent the Tax Payer, If you can consider the Billions of £s that are flushed down the toilet at the stroke of a pen by Civil Servents over the years...£25million aint a fortune.

It's better to have a small piece of the pie than nowt.

[Reggie Greenwood]

5 minutes ago, Unlucky Alf said:

My Daughter is an Offshore Senior VAT Analyst, She investigates those who have serious wealth but fail to pay their Tax liabilities, I spoke to her about this a few weeks ago, This was her reply...not Verbatum.

DCFC would have had an HMRC adviser working with them before Administration, Since Administration there will be a team with the Administraters trying to come to an amicable conclusion, Liquidation is in the background simply as a threat/bullying tactic, She said and I quote..."HMRC would be Fu**ing stupid to seek Liquidation", There will be 100s of outlying jobs that depend on DCFCs future carrying on, Unfortunately there's businesses that will not be paid and if DCFC pull through this DCFC will want to approach AGAIN those said businesses, So it will be on a CASH only basis...at a guess.

So in essense HMRC could score an own goal if they seek Liquidation, Loss of Tax revenue from those indirectly/directly involved, 10s of 1000s of locals who would be up in arms with HMRC.

Now unfortunately DCFC are dealing with Civil Servents that will not or fail to see the bigger picture, They are there as Government employees and the Government are there equelly to represent the Tax Payer, If you can consider the Billions of £s that are flushed down the toilet at the stroke of a pen by Civil Servents over the years...£25million aint a fortune.

It's better to have a small piece of the pie than nowt.

And a piece of that pie  going forward as a functioning entity so HRMC get funds from the on going new DCFC 

[atherstoneram]

2 minutes ago, Unlucky Alf said:

My Daughter is an Offshore Senior VAT Analyst, She investigates those who have serious wealth but fail to pay their Tax liabilities, I spoke to her about this a few weeks ago, This was her reply...not Verbatum.

DCFC would have had an HMRC adviser working with them before Administration, Since Administration there will be a team with the Administraters trying to come to an amicable conclusion, Liquidation is in the background simply as a threat/bullying tactic, She said and I quote..."HMRC would be Fu**ing stupid to seek Liquidation", There will be 100s of outlying jobs that depend on DCFCs future carrying on, Unfortunately there's businesses that will not be paid and if DCFC pull through this DCFC will want to approach AGAIN those said businesses, So it will be on a CASH only basis...at a guess.

So in essense HMRC could score an own goal if they seek Liquidation, Loss of Tax revenue from those indirectly/directly involved, 10s of 1000s of locals who would be up in arms with HMRC.

Now unfortunately DCFC are dealing with Civil Servents that will not or fail to see the bigger picture, They are there as Government employees and the Government are there equelly to represent the Tax Payer, If you can consider the Billions of £s that are flushed down the toilet at the stroke of a pen by Civil Servents over the years...£25million aint a fortune.

It's better to have a small piece of the pie than nowt.

Would those said businesses want to do business with the club again.The administrators said they were hoping to get the Roadrider operating again,that is probably a local business that hasn't been paid. Why would 10's of 1000's of locals be up in arms, there aren't that many reliant on the club.

[PistoldPete]

52 minutes ago, MackworthRamIsGod said:

Anyone with a shread of hope, who knows a thing or two about these types of situations, could you please tell us how you see this situation coming to and end?

15 million owed to MSD, 26, 28 (insert here) millions to HMRC, 8 million to Arsenal, 5 to Cocu etc etc.

How do we as a club wriggle out of this?

Is there a takeover done and dusted and all this is dotting I's and crossing T's before it is announced, or are we really in shtuck.

The club do not owe £8 million to Arsenal. Cocu has agreed reduced settlement I believe. Not all Hmrc debt is preferred creditor status. 
 

Non preferred creditors are likely to take a 25% agreement which should reduce debt by £15 million or more . Even preferred creditors may need to take a hit or risk getting nothing.

then we have PPS to throw in the mix . That would be part of the sale I believe .

Msd loan on PPS then becomes part of overall settlement with Msd.

new owners bring in a mixture of debt and equity financing to restore Company balance sheet and liquidity. Player sales are still likely in January but hopefully not a fire sale.

that is how I see is wriggling out of it.

 

[Ram-Alf]

2 minutes ago, atherstoneram said:

Would those said businesses want to do business with the club again.The administrators said they were hoping to get the Roadrider operating again,that is probably a local business that hasn't been paid. Why would 10's of 1000's of locals be up in arms, there aren't that many reliant on the club.

You'd have to ask those "said businesses"

Supporters.

 

[Tamworthram]

26 minutes ago, Crewton said:

They're in the driving seat regarding rights over the club's assets. If the club can't be saved and are liquidated, their debenture puts them ahead of everyone, including HMRC, as I believe it's classed as a "fixed charge", rather than a floating charge, which makes them primary rather than secondary preferential creditors (which is what most of the HMRC debt is). If anyone knows definitively that's not the case, then I stand to be corrected. I can't imagine that MSD would have lent substantial sums without making sure no-one could get ahead of them in the queue, because that's how entities like them work.

I also stand to be corrected but I believe the only difference between a fixed and a floating charge is that, as the name suggests, any assets with a fixed charge will always be fixed and cannot be disposed of or changed without the lenders consent. The best example is property. Assets with a floating charge over them can change without the lenders consent thus allowing them to trade without constantly having to obtain the lenders consent. Good example being debtors. So, when a lender takes a mortgage debenture over a companies assets, some assets will have a fixed charge over them (e.g. property, plant and machinery) whereas others (e.g. cash and debtors) will have a floating charge over them. Either way, the lender with those fixed or floating charges still has first call on them. 

That's how I remember it from when I dealt with such things working for a bank many years ago. 

[atherstoneram]

8 minutes ago, Unlucky Alf said:

You'd have to ask those "said businesses"

Supporters.

 

Supporters might be up in arms but they are not reliant on the club in the true sense of the word, for a livelihood etc.

[MackworthRamIsGod]

27 minutes ago, Unlucky Alf said:

My Daughter is an Offshore Senior VAT Analyst, She investigates those who have serious wealth but fail to pay their Tax liabilities, I spoke to her about this a few weeks ago, This was her reply...not Verbatum.

DCFC would have had an HMRC adviser working with them before Administration, Since Administration there will be a team with the Administraters trying to come to an amicable conclusion, Liquidation is in the background simply as a threat/bullying tactic, She said and I quote..."HMRC would be Fu**ing stupid to seek Liquidation", There will be 100s of outlying jobs that depend on DCFCs future carrying on, Unfortunately there's businesses that will not be paid and if DCFC pull through this DCFC will want to approach AGAIN those said businesses, So it will be on a CASH only basis...at a guess.

So in essense HMRC could score an own goal if they seek Liquidation, Loss of Tax revenue from those indirectly/directly involved, 10s of 1000s of locals who would be up in arms with HMRC.

Now unfortunately DCFC are dealing with Civil Servents that will not or fail to see the bigger picture, They are there as Government employees and the Government are there equelly to represent the Tax Payer, If you can consider the Billions of £s that are flushed down the toilet at the stroke of a pen by Civil Servents over the years...£25million aint a fortune.

It's better to have a small piece of the pie than nowt.

Great reply (as are one or two others), thanks.

[PistoldPete]

20 minutes ago, atherstoneram said:

Would those said businesses want to do business with the club again.The administrators said they were hoping to get the Roadrider operating again,that is probably a local business that hasn't been paid. Why would 10's of 1000's of locals be up in arms, there aren't that many reliant on the club.

I’m reliant on the club as a supporter. So yes I would be up in arms if HMRC did anything silly.

[Curtains]

41 minutes ago, MackworthRamIsGod said:

Yes I was hoping the HMRC could be sorted via installments arranged with the new buyers.

 

That depends if the new owners want to take on installments on 28 Million 

All very speculative that. 

[Curtains]

57 minutes ago, Ghost of Clough said:

Well we've already come to an agreement with Arsenal to delay all payments until next season. A big chuck of that rumoured £8m outstanding is from potential add-ons. You'll find most Championship clubs still owe similar total amounts to other clubs for transfers as we do. Nothing unusual here.
I'm sure Cocu would be more than willing to come to some agreement regarding his compensation, if he hasn't already done so.
MSD treated as a mortgage, so £xm paid off each year.
We'll come to some agreement with HMRC. Either a % of the total amount in one lump lump, or all of it paid off in installments.
There will also be small amounts owed to local businesses who I hope get everything they're due and as soon as possible.

Over optimistic on installments I’d say .

Would you want to pay 28 Million in installments along with all the other debt .

[Curtains]

37 minutes ago, Unlucky Alf said:

My Daughter is an Offshore Senior VAT Analyst, She investigates those who have serious wealth but fail to pay their Tax liabilities, I spoke to her about this a few weeks ago, This was her reply...not Verbatum.

DCFC would have had an HMRC adviser working with them before Administration, Since Administration there will be a team with the Administraters trying to come to an amicable conclusion, Liquidation is in the background simply as a threat/bullying tactic, She said and I quote..."HMRC would be Fu**ing stupid to seek Liquidation", There will be 100s of outlying jobs that depend on DCFCs future carrying on, Unfortunately there's businesses that will not be paid and if DCFC pull through this DCFC will want to approach AGAIN those said businesses, So it will be on a CASH only basis...at a guess.

So in essense HMRC could score an own goal if they seek Liquidation, Loss of Tax revenue from those indirectly/directly involved, 10s of 1000s of locals who would be up in arms with HMRC.

Now unfortunately DCFC are dealing with Civil Servents that will not or fail to see the bigger picture, They are there as Government employees and the Government are there equelly to represent the Tax Payer, If you can consider the Billions of £s that are flushed down the toilet at the stroke of a pen by Civil Servents over the years...£25million aint a fortune.

It's better to have a small piece of the pie than nowt.

Very true .

Let’s hope HMRC see it that way. 

[RoyMac5]

44 minutes ago, atherstoneram said:

The government haven't been bothered about the local economy with shops,pubs,nightclubs etc. closing down so i don't think why they should look on the club any differently,we have already had to make 20 people redundant.

I am not being negative but realistically you have to look at the whole picture as to how others see it and not just fans of the club.

Again, why end up with very little as opposed to a percentage of the debt and income going forward?

[PistoldPete]

46 minutes ago, atherstoneram said:

The government haven't been bothered about the local economy with shops,pubs,nightclubs etc. closing down so i don't think why they should look on the club any differently,we have already had to make 20 people redundant.

I am not being negative but realistically you have to look at the whole picture as to how others see it and not just fans of the club.

Not many nightclubs have 100,000 followers or have been going for 130 years.