New management team required - NOW

[Ram-Alf]

The guessing game is well and truly out of the blocks, "Lost the changing room" "entire management team should have gone with Cocu" "Waggy upset as he wasn't picked" "Mac 3" "Wassell" "under 23s over rated" and more in this thread.

I get the angst from posters, We're in a hole that looks to be getting deeper with no ladder to help us climb out, So why are we where we are?

It started imo when Lampard left and left very little time for PC to work with, So much so that once he was anounced he was on a flight to the USA for a pre season,,, yeh ideal for him i'm sure, A decent 1st season nowt special with hope for the coming season. But wait there was "Joinergate" Wisdom being stabbed, Keogh winning his unfare dismissal case, A prolonged takeover that never happened, Wages not being paid, Selling players(on the cheap)to get funds in, A commitee of 4 picking the team, The only bright thing was showing the EFL the door.

The saga of Martin signing and not signing a contract left little time for recruitment of a forward, Cocus games in charge before being sacked were truly awfull, WR moves in after being given a contract, We see a marked improvement in attitude, We're hard to score against even more difficult to beat, Then BANG we lose our best player to injury...again, The wheels have come off, Waghorn has been shown the changing room door, And if reports are right that WR is miffed with his attitude it looks as tho he's done with us.

So where do we point the finger of blame, imo all those that have anything to do with preparing, Picking and playing for the club, The buck stops at the managers door...as always, But lets not forget those that put a shirt on have to take the lions share of the blame, If they are not up for it...whether collectively or individualy then Waghorn could have alot more company in the close season.

PS...I still think we'll stay up?

[BondJovi]

We mention the Bielik factor quite a lot.

10 games under Cocu without Bielik. 6points.

12 under Rooney without. 12 points.

Then consider, Rooney has had CKR fit and available. He has all the loan options. He also doesn't have himself on the pitch.

In a lot of those games under Cocu we were the better team for the first half. We probably deserved more points than we had, not many but still.

Other than the second half at Brentford, we have barely turned up since Huddersfield. I would argue we have more points than we deserve from the last 12.

As usual with football, it has balanced out.

Why are some now choosing to defend the manager and blame the players, which they wouldn't do early on? Maybe this is karma for the fact Rooney put nothing in on the pitch this season.

 

[VulcanRam]

This international break is the first time Rooney and the coaching staff have had time to breathe and time to think. Since he took over it's been Saturday - Tuesday/Wednesday pretty much every week. Let's see what he does.

I'd give him to the rest of the season. If we stay up, he must be allowed to bring in his own coaches - this gang of four has been a disaster.

With the right people around him I think he can be a success. But he also needs a better quality of player.

 

[CrapSince99]

It's not a Rooney problem and it certainly wasn't a Cocu problem. It's a - the money dried up ages ago and we can't find an owner problem. That and Bielik hasn't been fit. 

No point sacking Rooney now. 

[LeedsCityRam]

18 minutes ago, brady1993 said:

This is something I'm really not sure about and I could see the arguments either way. Because as weird as it sounds I honestly think there were more positives in Cocu's last 10 games than in the past 10 under Rooney. There at least there were more than a handful games were things just didn't go our way and there were flashes of performances in places.  And by the end of that I thought Cocu's position was untenable. So at what point does Rooney's ? 

You can argue that he dug us out of it in the first place and so back him to do it again  but I remain unconvinced especially as the last 10 or so (1 half at Brentford) has had so little to be encouraged about and we've been arguably getting worse over that period. 

It's possible that we need a break for a mentality reset to go again for the final push but I just have a nagging feeling that we might be better off acting now rather than waiting.

I will caveat this by saying I really don't know if it's the right path or not and under most circumstances I'd advocate for letting roll till the seasons end.

Not so sure about the highlighted bit. As you probably knew, I was a big Cocu fan but he looked totally lost in those last few games (as did the team)

No doubt we're in a horrible run of form but I have seen more evidence that Rooney can 'win ugly' which Cocu really struggled with. The one thing they do have in common (and which you've highlighted elsewhere) is their over-reactivity to opponents. It makes teams too defensive in their thinking & given the talent we do have, we should be getting on the front foot against ordinary opposition like Stoke today & Millwall last week.

As to whether to change now...I really hate managerial change at the best of times but 3 managers in one season would turn us into a real basketcase. Not sure it would have a positive impact either given a) we've lost our best player to injury & b) we've already done the big managerial reset 4 months ago. Its also another financial hammer blow given the 2.5 year contracts given out a few weeks ago. We've gone down this route so I think we need to see it through.

[Topram]

I know some of it was Cocu but we’ve failed to score in half of our games this season

[LeedsCityRam]

19 minutes ago, DCFClks said:

But if he does just keep us up and we give him next season, what if he starts next season poorly ? that's another season gone, just like what happened to Cocu. 

Why not Lampard? he already knows the club and many of the players, those players will tell the other players how fun it was last time he was here. He'd be able to get more great loans...

There's an argument for saying Rooney would approach the job very differently with a clean slate next season. The team might also be of a more positive mindset starting from scratch. I think he'd deserve time next season (if we stayed up) to show us what a Rooney team really looks like.

Couldn't ever see Lampard back here unless we were in the Prem. Anything other than a top division club would be a major comedown from CL football & top 4 expectations.

[brady1993]

6 minutes ago, LeedsCityRam said:

Not so sure about the highlighted bit. As you probably knew, I was a big Cocu fan but he looked totally lost in those last few games (as did the team

Oh I agree and I'm not defending that he shouldn't have gone but there were a handful of really encouraging performances in there even if they were sparse. 

 

6 minutes ago, LeedsCityRam said:

No doubt we're in a horrible run of form but I have seen more evidence that Rooney can 'win ugly' which Cocu really struggled with. The one thing they do have in common (and which you've highlighted elsewhere) is their over-reactivity to opponents. It makes teams too defensive in their thinking & given the talent we do have, we should be getting on the front foot against ordinary opposition like Stoke today & Millwall last week.

Maybe to the point about winning ugly but recently we've lost that solidity, i suspect mostly due to the frequent tinkering destabilising us a little. Completely agree about the rest.

 

6 minutes ago, LeedsCityRam said:

As to whether to change now...I really hate managerial change at the best of times but 3 managers in one season would turn us into a real basketcase. Not sure it would have a positive impact either given a) we've lost our best player to injury & b) we've already done the big managerial reset 4 months ago. Its also another financial hammer blow given the 2.5 year contracts given out a few weeks ago. We've gone down this route so I think we need to see it through.

Oh I completely get you and agree for the most part and I wouldnt even float the idea in any other circumstance. But honestly the question right now is a very simple one "are we more likely to stay in the division with Rooney in charge or somebody else ?" 

I don't know the answer to that question, had you asked me 10 games again I'd say Rooney as the risk of falling apart would be too great but as each game passes it slipping more and more into need to change to just shake things up and ride the bounce till the end of the season.

[ramit]

Talk of changing the management team at this time is fairly pointless, Mel is not going to pay up the contracts.  The only possibility would be for Rooney and his management team to walk, which is highly doubtful.  Having said that, i would not be opposed to Mac3, or even Wassall given another try, but alas it is what it is.

[LeedsCityRam]

3 minutes ago, brady1993 said:

Oh I completely get you and agree for the most part and I wouldnt even float the idea in any other circumstance. But honestly the question right now is a very simple one "are we more likely to stay in the division with Rooney in charge or somebody else ?" 

I don't know the answer to that question, had you asked me 10 games again I'd say Rooney as the risk of falling apart would be too great but as each game passes it slipping more and more into need to change to just shake things up and ride the bounce till the end of the season.

Its a fair question. The one change we could make & I think needs making is McClaren getting more involved. We have a managerial novice assisted by a novice assistant manager & two other relative newcomers to coaching.

Whilst not his biggest fan, there's no doubting his coaching credentials & experience. It seems a shocking waste having him on the payroll but not involved in the matchday 'brains trust'

[Ramarena]

1 hour ago, LeedsCityRam said:

Im inclined to give Rooney the rest of the season to turn it round given his overall record to date & the league position we were in when he started but surely can be no doubt he has to go if we get relegated.

As others have pointed out, Cocu got this squad to 10th last year...the major differences being Martin replaced by Kazim, Byrne for Bogle & no Rooney ambling around the pitch. Doesn't seem a dramatic drop in quality.

5 players bought in this window and we’ve gone backwards on top of that!

[brady1993]

9 minutes ago, LeedsCityRam said:

Its a fair question. The one change we could make & I think needs making is McClaren getting more involved. We have a managerial novice assisted by a novice assistant manager & two other relative newcomers to coaching.

Whilst not his biggest fan, there's no doubting his coaching credentials & experience. It seems a shocking waste having him on the payroll but not involved in the matchday 'brains trust'

It really is ludicrous having McClaren on the pay roll and not having involved in the coaching. By all accounts it's what he excels at and to be honest it's frequently looked like something we've been missing this season, especially going forwards and having a plan in breaking teams  down.

[Philmycock]

14 minutes ago, Ramarena said:

5 players bought in this window and we’ve gone backwards on top of that!

Loaned in desperation

[Rev]

Cocu had a hard time getting results this season, and so has Rooney.

Some big differences between them though.

Only one had a player undermining him by making statements about his fellow players performance while in charge, from his very first game.

The same player has gone on to manage, and in a short time has publicly denigrated a number of former teammates in his role as manager.

I can't remember Sir Alex, or any other manager Rooney has worked for, making such statements about such a variety of players in their entire career.

So far, he's publicly blasted Marriott, Holmes, Sibley and now Waghorn, it seems at odds with everything I've ever read about dressing rooms.

Not to mention ridiculously over promoting other players making their way in the game.

 

[TheresOnlyWanChope]

2 hours ago, Chris_Martin said:

How?

if anything it's better than last season.

Better GK, Better LB, Better wingers, Better ST, everyone else is same as before. 

I would say there was more competition for places last season, for large parts of this season we have had quite a weak squad. Also, our team seems to have not reacted well to playing without fans. 

[G-Ram]

You'd think Rooney with his first job in management would want to bring in some of his own people as part of the management team. Just been left to work with whats already here. I know its down to money but Given, Rooney, Rosenior its the blind leading the blind with players who are not up to it 

[Tyler Durden]

7 minutes ago, Rev said:

Cocu had a hard time getting results this season, and so has Rooney.

Some big differences between them though.

Only one had a player undermining him by making statements about his fellow players performance while in charge, from his very first game.

The same player has gone on to manage, and in a short time has publicly denigrated a number of former teammates in his role as manager.

I can't remember Sir Alex, or any other manager Rooney has worked for, making such statements about such a variety of players in their entire career.

So far, he's publicly blasted Marriott, Holmes, Sibley and now Waghorn, it seems at odds with everything I've ever read about dressing rooms.

Not to mention ridiculously over promoting other players making their way in the game.

 

What did he say about Waghorn as I can't find anything to refer to this (not been on here for the past few days)

[DCFC Kicks]

41 minutes ago, LeedsCityRam said:

There's an argument for saying Rooney would approach the job very differently with a clean slate next season. The team might also be of a more positive mindset starting from scratch. I think he'd deserve time next season (if we stayed up) to show us what a Rooney team really looks like.

Couldn't ever see Lampard back here unless we were in the Prem. Anything other than a top division club would be a major comedown from CL football & top 4 expectations.

My worry is we said the same thing about Cocu, if it fails that's another season gone.

Maybe you're right, I don't know what PL team would hire Lampard though.

[Rev]

Just now, Tyler Durden said:

What did he say about Waghorn as I can't find anything to refer to this (not been on here for the past few days)

He said he can take one bad training session, but not a player tossing it off on purpose. Words are mine, meaning is the same.

[Ram-Alf]

7 minutes ago, Rev said:

Cocu had a hard time getting results this season, and so has Rooney.

Some big differences between them though.

Only one had a player undermining him by making statements about his fellow players performance while in charge, from his very first game.

The same player has gone on to manage, and in a short time has publicly denigrated a number of former teammates in his role as manager.

I can't remember Sir Alex, or any other manager Rooney has worked for, making such statements about such a variety of players in their entire career.

So far, he's publicly blasted Marriott, Holmes, Sibley and now Waghorn, it seems at odds with everything I've ever read about dressing rooms.

Not to mention ridiculously over promoting other players making their way in the game.

 

Marriott who put weight on at Wednesday and given time out by the Manager, Holmes openly stating he had talks with Huddersfield while we played a behind closed door friendly earlier in the season, Sibley who said he can be a little impulsive when coming on and knows he needs to do better, Waghorn may be looking to move on 

"He trained excellent on Thursday," Rooney confirmed after the Stoke defeat.

"Friday, in my opinion, wasn't acceptable in terms of the behaviour not so much the training."